Bestevaer 49ST

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Guys, are you changing your cruising grounds? That boat looks distinctively high latitude.

As always, for us cruising plans are "written in sand at low tide" .

When we bought our boat we vaguely expected to stay in the Med a couple of years and this has stretched to eight, so we have given up planning.

It is likely we will have a season cruising the Baltic after purchasing the boat and will then cross the pond, before eventually spending summers cruising New Zealand and winters in the South Pacific. We would, however, like a boat that could go anywhere, so that our options are not limited. After a season in the Baltic we may decide we would like to go further north the next year. Not impossible if the area is as beautiful as reported.

Although the boat will be good in cold weather, it should suit the tropics as well, with excellent ventilation (7 hatches 500 x 500), good insulation (75 mm above the waterline), a pilothouse shaded by a boom tent at anchor and a large cockpit shaded by a bimini. With extended cockpit seats planned, we will be able to sit in the cockpit (with our backs against the rear combing) facing forward for better airflow at anchor when it is hot.

SWL

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

On propane: you seem to be solidly in the pro-propane camp still, I would suggest you research this more like others did suggest already. After all, propane is a fossil fuel just like diesel, except it is much more dangerous and the #1 cause of fatal accidents on boats. You already carry diesel, so why not make most out of that and forget the propane all together. Installing a diesel genset to help when solar doesn't provide enough is not a bad idea as it can be done in the same space that would be used for propane storage. Besides for cooking, it's electrical output can be used universally for many things.

Also mentioned by others is induction cooking. It is not just similar to propane cooking, it is better because the pot/pan itself becomes the heat source and it is just as fast for adjustments as propane. Very unlike the old electric cooktops. I emphasize this as we just did a custom job in our motorhome that is all-electric, no propane, and we installed a professional grade 3,000W Cooktek induction cooktop. This is so good that we are changing the boat too. We have a 2nd, 1,800W portable unit that can be used on the table (fondue!) or in the cockpit as well as 2nd burner in the galley.

Besides not getting the moisture from burning propane, you also get so little heat in the cabin that it is not noticeable.
For oven/grill the Breville 800 is the thing.

Back to the generator: we have a regime that is based on a 1-2 hour runtime of the generator every so many days (it varies). What we do is we run the battery charger, high capacity watermaker, A/C and cook inside. This brings us all the water we need, gets some moisture out of the boat (saves the interior), gets rid of the heat for a nice sleep inside, and allows for a meal that is different from the cockpit grilled food.

Several members have now raised the subject of induction cooking, so it's time to address this.

I agree propane has problems. All the ones you have listed plus the headache of sourcing it and transporting it to and from the boat. I also agree induction cooking is excellent and eliminates almost all the problems with propane. However, and this is a BIG however, you need a generator or a big battery capacity with a huge solar array (possible on largish cats), or you need to be connected to shore power. The latter two don't apply to us.

We simply don't want to be dependent on a generator. We are not convinced that they are sufficiently reliable for offshore cruising, especially in remote places. Generator failures occur commonly and this effectively disables the boat. Urgent repair is then required.

I hope we will occasionally have enough power from solar/wind to use an induction hotplate. This will provide some redundancy for the vital function of cooking (as will the top of the Reflex heater when it is running).

We will try and overcome some of the problems associated with propane by having room for several large tanks, eliminating the need for frequently sourcing it. Over the years, as a keen cook I have explored techniques for cooking with little gas and think I now have this down pat, so the added moisture produced is not a big deal.

I am yet to be even vaguely convinced that relying on a generator is a good thing. This issue is probably on par with cat vs mono debates though .

SWL

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

good insulation (75 mm above the waterline), a pilothouse shaded by a boom tent at anchor and a large cockpit shaded by a bimini.

Just as an FYI . . . . we need a tent in the tropics for Silk (with 25mm of foam in the decks and light grey non-skid decks) . . . .but on Hawk, with 75mm of foam under the deck & light beige deck non-skid, we never did on Hawk . . . . the sun heat never got inside.

also as an FYI . . . .one change I would make to Hawk if doing her again . . . .would be to use 'silvered artificial teak' non-skid decks. Bare aluminum (like Dashews) is too hot (I have been on his boat in Baja and you can't want on the decks barefoot). Paint like we used on Hawk is too much maintenance. There are some really nice silvered color artificial teaks - look nice, extremely good non-skid, extremely durable (+20 years) - only drawbacks are $$$ and some extra weight.

While I am typing . . . on weight . . . . one thing we did right on Hawk was use core panels for essentially everything in the interior. Solid wood for only draw fronts and trim. This not only saved a ton of weight but also could not rot or swell, and damped sound, and added insulation (especially in the sole from cold water). I would not ever want any solid plywood anywhere if it could be avoided/replaced with cored panel.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Dinghy storage is always a headache, except on very large boats with huge "garages" at the rear. Better heads than ours have mulled over this issue.
Our current boat has tackled this in the manner you both suggest, except the dinghy is exposed. The original owners had wanted a smaller boat and the architect persuaded them to go to 48' and incorporate easy exterior dinghy storage (it just pulls directly up onto a long transom. It is fantastic and one thing I will miss a lot - I am reasonably lightweight in build and I can easily launch it on my own in less than a couple of minutes.

We don't really want to play with extending the size of this new boat even further though. The balanced look of the boat would be ruined unless the entire boat was redesigned, including a larger rig. We would then end up with a boat in the mid 50's, not what we particularly want.

So other alternatives need to be sought and compromises made. As we would like a decent solar array, an arch at the rear is the logical spot for this, although I agree it does detract from the looks. With an arch it is easy then to incorporate davits (and these can easily be made very strong on an aluminium boat). This makes launching and retrieval of the dinghy simple. There will be room in front of the mast to store the dinghy inverted for long or very rough passages.

The arch and davits will be designed as an integral part of the boat, rather than just an add one. This means they can not only be engineered to be strong, but ballast and rig can be arranged so that they have a minimum impact on the balance of the boat.

At the moment this seems the best solution.

SWL

I would love to see the dinghy storage on your present boat -- photos?

One solution I considered for my boat, suggested by one crewman, was extending the pushpit a bit to enable the dink to go on the afterdeck in chocks. This seems to me like what could be quite a good solution on boats with enough deck space (and my boat is pretty good for open deck space). I didn't pursue it partially because I just couldn't quite visualize it. I would be most interested to see what others have done in this direction.

Concerning davits -- they are the least objectionable when integrated into an arch, but I, personally, hate them in any case. Let me count the things that are bad about them: All that mass up high and aft, all that windage, risk of getting it pooped, hauling it up there, looks hideous, shall I go on? In your case, the hideousness will be somewhat lost in the greater hideousness of an arch, but the other disadvantages remain. Couldn't you find deck storage for it?

The Swan 90 I used to crew on should have been big enough for a good dinghy solution, but the solution found was -- the same as is usual on 30 foot cruising boats. A small air floor dink which was wrestled on board with a halyard and stored upside-down on the foredeck, or deflated, rolled, and stored. Bleh! What a curse!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

As always, for us cruising plans are "written in sand at low tide" .

When we bought our boat we vaguely expected to stay in the Med a couple of years and this has stretched to eight, so we have given up planning.

It is likely we will have a season cruising the Baltic after purchasing the boat and will then cross the pond, before eventually spending summers cruising New Zealand and winters in the South Pacific. We would, however, like a boat that could go anywhere, so that our options are not limited. After a season in the Baltic we may decide we would like to go further north the next year. Not impossible if the area is as beautiful as reported.

Although the boat will be good in cold weather, it should suit the tropics as well, with excellent ventilation (7 hatches 500 x 500), good insulation (75 mm above the waterline), a pilothouse shaded by a boom tent at anchor and a large cockpit shaded by a bimini. With extended cockpit seats planned, we will be able to sit in the cockpit (with our backs against the rear combing) facing forward for better airflow at anchor when it is hot.

SWL

When will the boat be finished? We're thinking about organizing a rally from Finland through the White Sea Canal to the White Sea, Barents Sea, across the top of Norway, and back down the North Sea, for 2017. With a big ice classed exploration M/V as the mother ship. That will be grand adventure, and that boat would be perfect for it.

[estarzinger]

^^ you really just need a 'support vessel' with a helo and it might as well have a full workshop and engineers also.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

I am yet to be even vaguely convinced that relying on a generator is a good thing. This issue is probably on par with cat vs mono debates though .

SWL

Well, to each his own, and I'm not trying to convince you of anything, but one of the advantages of using electric for everything is that it is highly rational in terms exactly of NOT being dependent on any one item of gear -- it is particularly easy to build up redundancy.

So you have multiple power sources -- heavy duty genset, portable genset if you like, school bus alternator, solar, wind, whatever. All feeding a good size battery bank, and with a gang of charger/inverters to manage DC to AC and AC to DC conversion, peak shaving, etc. Losing the diesel genset (very rare with heavy duty units -- they are extremely reliable) would not stop you from induction cooking, which needs far less power than traditional electrical resistance cooking.

Reverse cycle heat (which I do NOT have) fits beautifully into that system, if you need A/C.

And with robust electrical supply, you can use electrical appliance for a myriad of tasks -- microwave, electric kettle, convection oven, washing machine, power tools, etc., etc., etc.

This is an extremely robust system with redundancy everywhere -- in my opinion really good for a cruising boat.

But, as I said, I'm not trying to convince you -- suum quique.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

^^ you really just need a 'support vessel' with a helo and it might as well have a full workshop and engineers also.

This one has all that

Wanna come?

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Just as an FYI . . . . we need a tent in the tropics for Silk (with 25mm of foam in the decks and light grey non-skid decks) . . . .but on Hawk, with 75mm of foam under the deck & light beige deck non-skid, we never did on Hawk . . . . the sun heat never got inside.

We currently have 75 mm insulation for both deck and hull and finding it so good, we would like to reproduce it. We have found the interior temperature significantly less than exterior during hot Greek summers. I think the expanse of glass in the pilothouse and sheltered cockpit will make it hotter on the new boat, necessitating a repeat of the boom tent we currently live under. The reverse seating (facing forward) in the cockpit should also work well to catch any slight breeze.

Originally Posted by estarzinger

also as an FYI . . . .one change I would make to Hawk if doing her again . . . .would be to use 'silvered artificial team' non-skid decks. Bare aluminum (like Dashews) is too hot (I have been on his boat in Baja and you can't want on the decks barefoot). Paint like we used on Hawk is too much maintenance. There are some really nice silvered color artificial teaks - look nice, extremely good non-skid, extremely durable (+20 years) - only drawbacks are $$$ and some extra weight.

For ease of maintenance we would like to avoid paint. We would also like to avoid stick-on finishes, but want a good non skid surface that can be walked on with bare feet in summer (our painted non skid finish can be currently). All this is not possible, so deck finish is still a bit undecided. We will look into "silvered artificial team".
Some of the Dashew boats have used 5 bar alu tread as a non skid option. Any thoughts on this apart from the heat issue?

Originally Posted by estarzinger

While I am typing . . . on weight . . . . one thing we did right on Hawk was use core panels for essentially everything in the interior. Solid wood for only draw fronts and trim. This not only saved a ton of weight but also could not rot or swell, and damped sound, and added insulation (especially in the sole from cold water). I would not ever want any solid plywood anywhere if it could be avoided/replaced with cored panel.

The major three bulkheads will be watertight, therefore aluminium welded 360°. While heavier than cored panels, they do contribute to rigidity and strength.

Aesthetics will win for exposed timber. The boat will be very simple and rugged on the exterior, but we would like the beauty of solid wood inside for the reasonably small amounts of exposed timber that we will have. Floors will be 8mm solid timber laminated to ply. Cabinets will have solid wood drawer fronts and cupboard doors. No overhead cabinets anywhere, so weight is not an issue there. Walls and ceilings will be painted white. K&M produce beautiful interiors and this is one feature we are keen to have.

SWL

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I would love to see the dinghy storage on your present boat -- photos?

I will dig some up or take some tomorrow. Shots of the boat are usually only taken from the dinghy .

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Concerning davits -- they are the least objectionable when integrated into an arch, but I, personally, hate them in any case. Let me count the things that are bad about them: All that mass up high and aft, all that windage, risk of getting it pooped, hauling it up there, looks hideous, shall I go on? In your case, the hideousness will be somewhat lost in the greater hideousness of an arch, but the other disadvantages remain. Couldn't you find deck storage for it?

I agree with all this. I don't like the look of arches either and the windage and weight distribution are a big issue. If we want heaps of unshaded solar though (essential), an arch is really the best way of achieving this. And if we have an arch then it is logical to hang the dinghy under it for short passages (we are only going for a small dinghy). We have wrestled with this, but it seems to be the best compromise.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

When will the boat be finished? We're thinking about organizing a rally from Finland through the White Sea Canal to the White Sea, Barents Sea, across the top of Norway, and back down the North Sea, for 2017. With a big ice classed exploration M/V as the mother ship. That will be grand adventure, and that boat would be perfect for it.

At this stage it looks like launch is likely to be early 2018. An 18 month to 2 year build time is expected and only very rough plans have been completed at this stage. We are in the process of finalising the specifications so detailed plans can be commenced.

SWL

[med]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

We will have no cleats, as I know cleats (a double horn).

The eight double "sampson posts" I am referring to are are bollards with cross pieces that will act as cleats (see photo below). Not sure if "sampson post" is the right terminology for the ones not at the bow. Anyway, they will all be strong enough to take the anchoring gear, as they go all the way through the deck and are then welded to the frames below. We have just one single one at our bow at the moment and it is brilliant, so eight doubles (welded to the toe rail as well as the frames) will be a lovely overkill.



Are you able to post a photo of this? It sounds like an excellent idea that we could incorporate. I agree running backstays are an absolute PITA.

The bollard in the photo looks to be too close to the rail in order to get an oversized mooring warp around it.

This you will need to do if you tie up to the posh pontoons in the Med in Spain - they have warps sized for 50m ship sized yachts.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

And with robust electrical supply, you can use electrical appliance for a myriad of tasks -- microwave, electric kettle, convection oven, washing machine, power tools, etc., etc., etc.

All of those can easily be done without the need of a generator.

Besides the cooking heat inside, which I do understand, I don't see all the issues everyone has with a properly installed LPG system and detectors.

Matt

[hpeer]

Go old school, paraffin?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

All of those can easily be done without the need of a generator.

Besides the cooking heat inside, which I do understand, I don't see all the issues everyone has with a properly installed LPG system and detectors.

Matt

I have always had propane (or butane) on all of my boats, and have it now. Of course it is an acceptable way to cook. But it has a lot of drawbacks:

1. Safety. Small risk but of a terrible consequence. Can't be completely eliminated. And managing the risk does demand time and attention.

2. Combustion products in the air.

3. Large amounts of water vapor in the air.

4. One more fuel to store on board (in a gas-safe locker), acquire, worry about finding, etc., which can't be used for any other purpose.

5. One more system.


From a systems design point of view, it is far better and far more rational to harmonize fuels and power sources. Different power sources means no redundancy between systems.

On the plus side, gas has a far higher power density than batteries. But this doesn't mean much when you are generating power and storing power in your batts for lots of other things -- you get a lot of synergy.

If I am ever in the joyous position which SWL and Noelex find themselves in now, of designing a new boat from scratch, I will definitely eliminate gas and cook with electric. It just has so much going for it, for a cruising boat.

Sent from my SGP521 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I have always had propane (or butane) on all of my boats, and have it now. Of course it is an acceptable way to cook. But it has a lot of drawbacks:

1. Safety. Small risk but of a terrible consequence. Can't be completely eliminated. And managing the risk does demand time and attention.

2. Combustion products in the air.

3. Large amounts of water vapor in the air.

4. One more fuel to store on board (in a gas-safe locker), acquire, worry about finding, etc., which can't be used for any other purpose.

5. One more system.


From a systems design point of view, it is far better and far more rational to harmonize fuels and power sources. Different power sources means no redundancy between systems.

On the plus side, gas has a far higher power density than batteries. But this doesn't mean much when you are generating power and storing power in your batts for lots of other things -- you get a lot of synergy.

If I am ever in the joyous position which SWL and Noelex find themselves in now, of designing a new boat from scratch, I will definitely eliminate gas and cook with electric. It just has so much going for it, for a cruising boat.

Sent from my SGP521 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

I am firmly in the gas cooker camp.
However, the last year in Spain I have been using electric induction cooking.

Here is why. Fire hazard eliminated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3AI1eQ50iE