Bestevaer 49ST

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by redsky49

The deck will be aluminum as well?

Yes.

One of the advantages of aluminium is that you have an immensely strong total monocoque structure. There is no hull to deck join as such. It is just a welded one piece structure.

There is also no penetration with bolts etc for deck fittings if it is designed properly. Therefore almost no possibilities of deck leaks. There is no core to rot or delaminate.

The drawback is the sweeping curves that are easy to engineer in a fibreglass mould are a lot more difficult to incorporate. So the deck tends to look more agricultural.

Swings and roundabouts .

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Congratulations, noelex and Mermaid, have TOO MUCH fun with it!
Ann & Jim

Originally Posted by Tayana42

Much happiness to you and SWL as you go forward with your dream boat. I can hardly imagine the excitement of choosing every design element and dealing with a really high quality custom builder. We will all share your anticipation of seeing her come to life.
S/V B'Shert

Many thanks.
It is extremely exciting . The thinking and planning has gone on for a while now. We decided on K&M last year when we visited their yard, but like so many of you, their site has been one of my bookmarks for several years. I have been sketching plans and jotting down notes for a while, and now that the design has been commissioned this has ramped up.

It will be a very indulgent boat - built to optimally suit a couple (specifically this couple ) cruising full time. The size is way more than we need, but it allows the ends to be left empty (3m between the bow and front waterproof bulkhead and just over 3m between the rear one and the stern), giving lots of outside storage and light ends. A third waterproof bulkhead with a waterproof door is planned between the owner's cabin and the galley/salon.

I am really looking forward to our main living area being the pilothouse. We live very comfortably in the cockpit under the shade of the boom tent for a good chunk of the year, but as we are at anchor all year, a fair bit of time is currently spent down below.

SWL

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

. . . So the deck tends to look more agricultural.

Swings and roundabouts .

I rather like the agricultural look. The Dashew power boats, in particular, are absolutely superb to my eye.

My only question is -- what does that lovely unfinished alu look like when you inevitably scratch or dent it? GRP can be filled and buffed out like magic -- one of its several charms. This question is one which would make me hesitate about alu.

[Eleuthera 2014]

Superb choice!!! I considered Kanter, Garcia, Cigale and OVNI... Van den Stadt too.. all in alu.

Enticing indeed.

Enjoy the build!

[CAELESTIS]

Agricultural? How about "looks like an SUV for the sea"? Dashewesque.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Thanks for the tip Matt.

I think it is the owner's third Bestevaer. He has had three built: Guadalupe, Alice then Africa ( I do lots of research ). I have never directly spoken to the owner. If you any contact, or other details please send me a PM.

The standard of European boat wiring (ignoring the UK) is a long way below that is seen in other countries. I have no idea why, but that seems to be the way it is.

A simple example is the very rare use of tinned wiring even by many (most) premium boatbuilders. Crazy.

Anyway, the advantage of custom boatbuilders is that they will build almost anything you want. I have already specified the wire, circuit breakers battery switches etc.

Unfortunately I do not have his info, but I'm sure K&M can get you two in touch. He's a great guy.... By the way, he is having a Rustler 37 built right now for the Caribbean and Africa is getting shipped to Seattle.


Great to hear you can decide the electrical that easy. I figured their contractor would be too set in their ways.

Matt



Sent from my LG-V410 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[CAELESTIS]

One mod to consider would be having an external rudder that slides into a cassette. That way you could carry spare rudders.

[weavis]

I really think you should ask Kenomac whether or not the boat is beautiful. Without his seal of approval, you could be making a huge mistake!

Personally, it has enclosed wheel house type thing so Im in favour........even if it is short on a hull.

[s/v Jedi]

What to say... A proper Dutch design built by a proper Dutch yard here are some points I would consider:

- Study the Dashew Cruising Encyclopedia chapters on building aluminium boats.
- Use a lawyer to check the contract: who owns materials, hull under construction etc. how about the export and VAT, CE certifications etc.
- install a proper isolation transformer and a catalytic corrosion alarm
- engine and drive line? Genset?
- SSB install is often not done right by Dutch yards unless they consulted with an expert.
- What brand & type of ball valves do they put on the aluminium inlets?
- The anchoring setup is often weak with Dutch builds: too small windlass, separate batteries instead of big diameter wire, too small chain locker that is not auto-stowing well etc. This is where the Dashew book rules particularly. Offset the windlass from the centerline a bit so that the chain stays well clear of stays etc.
- Ventilation!

Congrats!

[JPA Cate]

I feel like I'm flyiing in some pretty rarified air here, but, FWIW, I suggest specifying also, larger conduit than they intend to use, for the addition of "afterthooughts" a few years down the line, and a couple of empty circuit breakers, too.

Ann

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

I feel like I'm flyiing in some pretty rarified air here, but, FWIW, I suggest specifying also, larger conduit than they intend to use, for the addition of "afterthooughts" a few years down the line, and a couple of empty circuit breakers, too.

Ann

An excellent suggestion.

The maker of my boat left mouse lines in most of the conduits and some spare circuit breakers, but all this turned out to be far too little compared to actual needs.

Really big, really accessible conduits, lots of space for electrical and electronic gear, lots of room for expansion.

If you have a proper walk-in engine room, one wall or part of one wall can be reserved for hanging charger/inverters etc., the main bus bars, and so forth.

OR, some area, well above the water line, where you can neatly install all this gear. If the batteries will fit there or adjacent, so much the better.

All this takes volume and will cost, which is why few boat makers are willing to do it like this. The problems which occur later on will already not be the maker's problems. So designing a custom boat is a unique opportunity to solve this.


The OP mentioned that European electrical installations are inferior -- and I agree. At least continental ones. Even on very expensive boats. The best electrical work I have ever seen on boats is done in the UK. Oysters, Moodys, and Discoveries have the best electrical installations I've ever seen, by far. Might be worth trying to find an English company to do the electrical installations. The quality of this is extremely important; electrical problems on cruising boats are pure misery and on an alu boat could be pure fatality.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by CAELESTIS

One mod to consider would be having an external rudder that slides into a cassette. That way you could carry spare rudders.

Or gudgeons on the transom for an external spare rudder and/or wind vane.

It's fun spending Noelex's money, isn't it? But kidding aside, this would be non-negotiable for me, if I were building a custom boat.

[noelex 77]

Thanks for all the great comments. We do appreciate the time and effort people have taken to reply.

I will try and respond in detail to the many great points raised.

First some words on the overall philosophy behind the design. Our ideas of the ideal cruising boat are remarkably close to Beth Leonard and Evans Starzinger's, who cruised many years on their similar sized aluminium boat Hawk.

They are much better writers than I am and there is little point repeating their ideas, as they have expressed them well in their blog:
Beth and Evans Home Page

Links particularly relevant to their boat design philosophy are:
S/V Hawk
Evolution of Hawk

Finally this article sums it up perfectly:
http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/Leftoff.pdf

Take the time to read the whole lot if you are considering buying or building a cruising boat, but here is a small quote from the latter article:

"A second basic tradeoff, as we discovered over the course of our three-year circumnavigation, has to do with how much time we spend seeing the places we sail to and how much time we spend in chandleries, boatyards, freight offices and on our stomachs in the bilge of the boat. The more comfortable and convenient a boat, the more complicated—and the more time will be spent fixing it instead of sightseeing."


There are some minor areas we will differ from Hawk. These are:

1. Watermaker
We love the watermaker on our current boat. Spending almost no time in marinas means lugging most of your water from very hard to find shore taps. A watermaker also provides beautiful tasting drinking water without the expense (and more carrying and storage) of bottled water for drinking. In short, the benefit/trouble ratio has been very high. As a backup, the boat will have large water tanks and a rain deck collection system for the inevitable day when the watermaker breaks down.

2. Power generation
Solar panels are extremely reliable. We have used solar on our yachts for 30 years. Each new yacht has had an increase in capacity. A custom designed yacht provides the option of a reasonably large solar array. Still debating about a wind generator in addition to this.

3. Refrigeration
We see a lot of cruising boats that miss much of best season awaiting spare parts or diverting to places they really don't want to visit, simply for repairs to be carried out. The two biggest culprits are generators and refrigeration.
However, refrigeration (particularly for cold drinks in summer) is very nice. We are never in a marina and generally not close enough to shops to buy ice so an ice box, as used on Hawk, is of little use. The plan for the new boat is to fit one or two car fridges (similar to Engels). Compared to a boat fridge, these are only slightly less efficient in terms of power draw, particularly with a bit of added insulation. One can be run a fridge, one as freezer, or both as fridges. Two provide an instant backup. Or to reduce power consumption to a minimium one can switched off and used simply as storage. They are cheap and if they break down they can be thrown away and a new unit purchased with zero installation issues. The main drawback is the overall capacity is low (probably 2 x 40 litres)

3. Sails
The staysail will be on a furling system. The current plan is make the staysail furler identical to the Yankee furler (a Furlex 400). For the small size of the staysail, this is very oversized and should make the system bullet proof. This is helpful for a sail that will be used in strong conditions. Importantly, the parts can be cannibalised and used if there is failure of the Yankee furling system. The boat can then be sailed as a sloop, reducing the urgency of a repair.

4. Washing machine
This does not quite fit in with KISS, but it is one of the few houshold appliances we have missed. More solar and/or wind means operation should be feasible without a generator.

So in short, it will be a KISS boat compared to yachts of a similar size. I would caution that this is not for everyone. My wife and I cruised for many years on very small yachts. When you have been cruising away from civilization for a month on yacht with a 50 litre water tank (and having a great time), any larger yacht seems like an indulgent luxury.

When we started full time cruising, there was some thought that doing without comforts that we take for granted in a house, while fine for a month or so, would become very tiresome over the long term. We have been cruising full time now for eight years and have not found this to be the case, although the new boat will feature some systems that our current boat does not have: a washing machine, Reflex heater and possibly a reasonable quality hifi system. I miss my very good home system and while this is not feasible on a boat, I hope to eventually install something that makes music listening a real pleasure.

[weavis]

The Washing machine.

As you will be keeping areas clear of stuff...... Perhaps you should consider putting in clothes racks for drying and a good hot air blower and a good extraction ventilator. It keeps the deck clear of yer undies and works in all weather.

On my MoBo in Florida, I had a washer/dryer combo but found running the hot air fan in a spare cabin on the clothes and using a window fan to extract was much better.



Also:

As you outline your thinking per the design, I note hesitation in some areas. I believe you are absolutely right to keep the operational features simple, and this is good thinking, yet do not be afraid to add things that are NOT essential to the running of the vessel. Make sure these things can be ripped out and thrown overboard and the vessel can still be sailed. My simplistic view of it keeps the balance for me. It is going to be your home so darned well make it comfortable without compromise to the essentials.

I would personally carry a second water maker kit or have a second system installed or even a portable unit in the event of breakdown. Rich Borens systems are amazing value and reliability for the money.

As for sound-just do it.

Finally I note that you dont want the electronics set up in the photo you posted. I think by the time you have the equipment that you only need to fit once, it will look similar. I would have everything duplicated in the wheelhouse and at your nav station. I might even be tempted to reduce clutter and have a large screen with all the info on it and tied into your tablets for the Nav station, but..... I like the individual read outs at the helm so if one goes down its only one and not the whole screen.

The only other I would be concerned about is the electrical bonding of the hull and different metals. But then you are acutely aware of that so it will be attended to.

Waiting for a boat to be built is not something I have the patience for. Im quite happy going off the shelf with minor changes in a quick time. If I designed a vessel, I would find something I would want to change when I got it so its easy for me to live with something Im not keen on from an off the shelf design already.

I know the thought that has gone into this and any suggestions made are not a criticism of your own wishes. Each person makes a vessel their own in a unique way and this will be yours.

It will be lovely.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Thanks for all the great comments. We do appreciate the time and effort people have taken to reply.

I will try and respond in detail to the many great points raised.

First some words on the overall philosophy behind the design. Our ideas of the ideal cruising boat are remarkably close to Beth Leonard and Evans Starzinger's, who cruised many years on their similar sized aluminium boat Hawk.

They are much better writers than I am and there is little point repeating their ideas, as they have expressed them well in their blog:
Beth and Evans Home Page

Links particularly relevant to their boat design philosophy are:
S/V Hawk
Evolution of Hawk

Finally this article sums it up perfectly:
http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/Leftoff.pdf

Take the time to read the whole lot if you are considering buying or building a cruising boat, but here is a small quote from the latter article:

"A second basic tradeoff, as we discovered over the course of our three-year circumnavigation, has to do with how much time we spend seeing the places we sail to and how much time we spend in chandleries, boatyards, freight offices and on our stomachs in the bilge of the boat. The more comfortable and convenient a boat, the more complicated—and the more time will be spent fixing it instead of sightseeing."


There are some minor areas we will differ from Hawk. These are:

1. Watermaker
We love the watermaker on our current boat. Spending almost no time in marinas means lugging most of your water from very hard to find shore taps. A watermaker also provides beautiful tasting drinking water without the expense (and more carrying and storage) of bottled water for drinking. In short, the benefit/trouble ratio has been very high. As a backup, the boat will have large water tanks and a rain deck collection system for the inevitable day when the watermaker breaks down.

2. Power generation
Solar panels are extremely reliable. We have used solar on our yachts for 30 years. Each new yacht has had an increase in capacity. A custom designed yacht provides the option of a reasonably large solar array. Still debating about a wind generator in addition to this.

3. Refrigeration
We see a lot of cruising boats that miss much of best season awaiting spare parts or diverting to places they really don't want to visit, simply for repairs to be carried out. The two biggest culprits are generators and refrigeration.
However, refrigeration (particularly for cold drinks in summer) is very nice. We are never in a marina and generally not close enough to shops to buy ice so an ice box, as used on Hawk, is of little use. The plan for the new boat is to fit one or two car fridges (similar to Engels). Compared to a boat fridge, these are only slightly less efficient in terms of power draw, particularly with a bit of added insulation. One can be run a fridge, one as freezer, or both as fridges. Two provide an instant backup. Or to reduce power consumption to a minimium one can switched off and used simply as storage. They are cheap and if they break down they can be thrown away and a new unit purchased with zero installation issues. The main drawback is the overall capacity is low (probably 2 x 40 litres)

3. Sails
The staysail will be on a furling system. The current plan is make the staysail furler identical to the Yankee furler (a Furlex 400). For the small size of the staysail, this is very oversized and should make the system bullet proof. This is helpful for a sail that will be used in strong conditions. Importantly, the parts can be cannibalised and used if there is failure of the Yankee furling system. The boat can then be sailed as a sloop, reducing the urgency of a repair.

4. Washing machine
This does not quite fit in with KISS, but it is one of the few houshold appliances we have missed. More solar and/or wind means operation should be feasible without a generator.

So in short, it will be a KISS boat compared to yachts of a similar size. I would caution that this is not for everyone. My wife and I cruised for many years on very small yachts. When you have been cruising away from civilization for a month on yacht with a 50 litre water tank (and having a great time), any larger yacht seems like an indulgent luxury.

When we started full time cruising, there was some thought that doing without comforts that we take for granted in a house, while fine for a month or so, would become very tiresome over the long term. We have been cruising full time now for eight years and have not found this to be the case, although the new boat will feature some systems that our current boat does not have: a washing machine, Reflex heater and possibly a reasonable quality hifi system. I miss my very good home system and while this is not feasible on a boat, I hope to eventually install something that makes music listening a real pleasure.

Concerning refrigeration:

I have always found that lots of effective refrigeration vastly reduces the headache of provisioning, increasing cruising fun time. Especially a separate freezer, and I've seen boats with multiple separate freezers.

The disposable car fridge idea has great merits (a bit like using outboards on a cat instead of inboard diesels), but good marine refrigeration (like Isotherm) is very reliable, and can usually be fixed in a pinch by adding gas from a can kept on board. If you have separate fridge and freezer, you've got redundancy -- freezer can be retasked as a fridge in a pinch if needed.

A good sized freezer is just incredibly useful, albeit at considerable cost of electrical power consumption. Even coastal cruising, the freezer will save you a lot of provisioning expeditions, and will ensure a reliable supply of fresh-equivalent meat and vegetables even in remote places.

Likewise with the diesel generator -- this is a glorious luxury and almost mandatory if you have a washing machine on board. Heavy duty low speed ones are extremely reliable, and are backed up by other power sources (especially, the school bus alternator). I know that some people's cruises are disrupted by generator problems, but this need not happen with a properly configured power system. A superabundance of electrical power will also allow you to get rid of gas on board, with gains in safety, space, simplicity, etc. It will also free you from worrying about power, something a lot of cruisers spend a lot of time on. Whenever you need power, just flip on the generator, problem solved. The generator even backs up the central heating system -- just flip it on and turn on electric heat.

Concerning the washing machine -- you will wonder how you ever lived without it. If you are planning on being in colder latitudes, this should have a dryer as well. This makes an enormous difference to life on board -- always having clean clothes and bedding, and being able to toss something in the wash if it gets soaked in salt water or something.

So in any case, you're not going to be in a KISS boat, and I think it might be a certain self-deception to pretend that you are. Just foregoing a diesel genset and normal refrigeration will not, by itself, make your very complex, large, world cruising boat suddenly KISS. The answer to the -- to a certain extent inevitable -- complexity of the long-distance cruising boat is to have an excellent inventory of spares, and the tools and skills to maintain the systems. And to choose good quality, heavy duty gear wherever possible, and build in redundancy where practical. By all means, do without what you don't really need, but you can go overboard in that direction, too.

I think spares is the main thing -- surely 90% of the parts that cruises are ruined waiting for, could have been anticipated. An excellent spares inventory for a complex boat is a big investment, but worth every penny. If you're building a boat from scratch, you can design excellent storage for your spares inventory, too, so you never struggle trying to find something when you need it.