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Old 05-10-2023, 14:03   #1
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Best orientation of fairleads at the base of winches? - opinions appreciated

I am restoring a Nor’Sea27. Rebuilt all the teak rails ($$$). I disliked how the winches were setup and plan to drill them in place next week as shown in the drawing below. Not something I ever want to re-drill so your opinions and predictions are appreciated. Only two of the winches have a fairlead at the base. The others do not. Fairlead orientation is defined by how I drill and mount the entire winch.
Would you put the fairlead on A & B or C & D and at WHAT DIRECTION? And WHY?

More details if wanted… All winches are Murray m5 winches. Top cleating. Bottom ratchet. Reversible pawls. I hope to have A and D wrap counter clockwise and B and C wrap clockwise. This will avoid the rubbing on the cabin walls and lifeline stanchions (see blue x in drawing). Note A and B are on angled teak plates. C and D are upright plates but i could sand them into angles. In the cockpit the ergonomics of A and B is way better and I presume these will be the workhorses running the foresail, thus I left them angled. Where as C and D are more backups, or for running a spinnaker off the block at “E?” or pulling in the bridal of a paraanchor or…?. Note, I have a long T-track shown in red.


ideas, predictions and opinions are all appreciated.
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Old 07-10-2023, 22:55   #2
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Re: Best orientation of fairleads at the base of winches? - opinions appreciated

This is the aft cabin model? The blocks marked "E" are your mainsheet blocks I believe. Do you have a staysail? Self tending? If you know that A and B are good for the jib then go ahead with those, but if it were me I'd hold off on the others unless you know what they are for. (Do you have a spinnaker? Pole with foreguy and topping lift? That would be a bit unusual for a cruising boat.) I have only seen a few of these so take it with a grain of salt.

I wait to drill after I see things lined up under a bit of tension. And then I still make mistakes sometimes.
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Old 08-10-2023, 06:37   #3
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Re: Best orientation of fairleads at the base of winches? - opinions appreciated

Yes, aft cabin (aka center cockpit)

Sloop

No staysail rigging. Might add removable storm staysal after i get a feel for her but i highly doubt it. She is so little to begin with i doubt it would help, but time will tell.

Yes. Asym spinnaker and beefy poles with lift and guys. Looking for large yankee cut drifter because i used those often on previous boats.

E? Is likely the spinnaker block. Yes. I put a ? on it because I do not remember where it was plus or minus 1 or 2 ft. But, if block is kept close to the rail, i feel safe saying it will lay low enough of the winch to not need to be angled.

No traveler. Tiller arches ofer aft cabin. No easy way to add one.

Having never sailed this particular norsea and this particular sail i can only guess if the previous owner used the genoa track. But the fairleads were on A and B. Orientation (direction) of fairleads looked wonky imo because he had the winches all winding the same direction. Like normal winches.


Thanks for your ideas. I am typing on a phone. Sorry if i sound frank.
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Old 08-10-2023, 10:18   #4
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Re: Best orientation of fairleads at the base of winches? - opinions appreciated

Well, Like I say, if it were me I'd hold off on the second set of winches until I sailed her. Also, in photos I see of the aft cabin models, the blocks you have marked as "E" are for the mainsheet. Did you have some other plan for the mainsheet?
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Old 08-10-2023, 12:21   #5
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Re: Best orientation of fairleads at the base of winches? - opinions appreciated

The critical thing about the location of the blocks is the angle to the winch. Most brands want an upward angle from the last block to the winch base of 5 to 10 degrees. This is critical to avoid over-rides. If the angle is too steep, the line will tend to run off the bottom of the winch. Mess this up, and the winch will never work right.

Then of course you also need a fair lead TO the last block as well. Those two requirements usually dictate pretty narrowly where you can put it, and its exact orientation.
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Old 10-10-2023, 09:24   #6
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Re: Best orientation of fairleads at the base of winches? - opinions appreciated

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Originally Posted by Don C L View Post
The blocks marked "E" are your mainsheet blocks I believe.
Oh, you are so thoughtful for investigating my particular boat. Indeed there are also pad eyes near there for the main sheet but "E7" is well forward of them. Thanks.
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Old 10-10-2023, 11:36   #7
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Re: Best orientation of fairleads at the base of winches? - opinions appreciated

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Oh, you are so thoughtful for investigating my particular boat. Indeed there are also pad eyes near there for the main sheet but "E7" is well forward of them. Thanks.
Ah then yes, those are for a spinnaker or a sail like a reacher.
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Old 14-10-2023, 10:01   #8
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Re: Best orientation of fairleads at the base of winches? - opinions appreciated

Hmm. I've never seen these before. As noted above, winches want the line to come to them at a 5 to 15 degree angle from below. Within limits, I suspect that these will expand that some. Unless there's a good reason why you can't make the lines follow the 5/15 rule, I'd leave these off. Winches can be useful for docking and other things -- these fairleads would prevent that.


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Old 23-10-2023, 21:07   #9
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Re: Best orientation of fairleads at the base of winches? - opinions appreciated

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Originally Posted by Fintry View Post
Hmm. I've never seen these before. As noted above, winches want the line to come to them at a 5 to 15 degree angle from below. Within limits, I suspect that these will expand that some. Unless there's a good reason why you can't make the lines follow the 5/15 rule, I'd leave these off. Winches can be useful for docking and other things -- these fairleads would prevent that.


Jim

I have A and B on pads that angle the winches out 15 deg. This helps give that 5-15 deg below base feed angle from the jib/geny. I have used winches that are angled out. they are great when pulling from a forward direction. only a forward direction. If pulling from abeam or aft or midship i feel it wraps up on the winch or overrides.
Thus i figured i would leave C and D on a flat winch pad. Then i could pull from any direction. If blocked at E7 it would feed at about -5 deg.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fintry View Post
Winches can be useful for docking and other things

YES. and on my mind is a bridal if hoveto behind a paraanchor




that is why i wonderd if fairleads pointing abeam (straight outwards) on C and D would be helpfull. Could I avoid running such a bridal to a block (i.e. E?) if the fairlead pointed outwards.The winch has way bigger backing plate than a block at E?. And E? would be almost double the static force than running straight to a winch. Then again... how often would i use such an orientation? pretty fricking rarely.


It is a center cockpit. So, to me, the winches feel way more forward than a normal stern cockpit boat.

I have never used Murry winches with fairleads. Or any fairlead at the base of a winch. No clue if one can bypass the fairlead. I feel it is likely. It is really stout big winch. I should point out that C and D were originally smaller winches on this boat. I found two additional murray M6 winches so they all share the same type of handle.

The fairleads unbolts so, i could indeed avoid the fairlead all together and even do so on the water. But the orientation of the fairleads, if useful, kinda has to be decided now. Before ever even sailling this particular boat.


Thanks to everyone for the ideas or confirmations. Not drilling quite yet so open to more if others chime in.
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Old 23-10-2023, 21:09   #10
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Re: Best orientation of fairleads at the base of winches? - opinions appreciated

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Well, Like I say, if it were me I'd hold off on the second set of winches until I sailed her.

I could. I will stew on that.
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