Beneteau Sense vs a Cat?

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

You must be reading different posts from the ones I'm writing. I'd be willing to bet a lot of money I've never suggested cats outsell monohulls.

Please show me where I said that.

My bad, I need some sleep.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Polux

75 feet????????????have a look:

Interesting Sailboats: MOJITO 888, VOILE MAGAZINE BOAT OF THE YEAR 2015

It's not a good way, at least, not without vast compromises. In this case, hull volume.

Instead of 75 feet though, I probably should have said 64'. Because the Hallberg-Rassy 64 has the most perfect dinghy storage I have ever seen on a sailboat of under, well, even 100'. Check it out:



Now that's really good!

The difference is that this is not a "garage", it's an actual "hangar deck" where you can conveniently store all kinds of deck gear. A kind of uber-lazarette. It's accessible from above as well as behind.

Even this is not without compromise, however! You are limited to a very small dingy for a boat that size.

[phiga]

Hi,
No davits, no shade?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

It's not a good way, at least, not without vast compromises. In this case, hull volume.

Instead of 75 feet though, I probably should have said 64'. Because the Hallberg-Rassy 64 has the most perfect dinghy storage I have ever seen on a sailboat of under, well, even 100'. Check it out:

Attachment 90804

Now that's really good!

The difference is that this is not a "garage", it's an actual "hangar deck" where you can conveniently store all kinds of deck gear. A kind of uber-lazarette. It's accessible from above as well as behind.

Even this is not without compromise, however! You are limited to a very small dingy for a boat that size.

The Halberg Rassy does not make my style but there are plenty of boats smaller then 64ft with a garage beginning by those Malangos. Some examples of boats with garage that make my style:

The Gieffe 53


The new Solaris 54


The Solaris 60


The new X6


and one from the same brand as my boat, a Comet 62

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlSz1l9caOI

[Polux]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

FFS, are you defensive or what? Take a look at the context - someone JOKINGLY suggested cat sailors were fat and lazy. I JOKINGLY - try reading that a couple of times - JOKINGLY - suggested we just prefer using our brains.

Who said I was not Joking I see a perfect symmetry here when you said:

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

" Anyway, getting back to the original question - while they've tried, no the Sense hasn't managed to duplicate the advantages of a cat. As stated, there's no dinghy storage, no shade over the cockpit, also it draws too much, can't take the bottom etc etc."

you can only be joking too and that's why I said you should use the brains, in the same way you said Robert to use his brains. It seems by your post that cats have more advantages than monohull boats and that Sense wants to duplicate them without managing.

If that was so there would not be more than 20 cruisers choosing a monohull to each one that chooses a cat. it is quite the opposite, monohull are the boats chosen by the vast majority of cruisers and that means that for the vast majority they offer a better package of advantages then the multihulls.

Of course each boat has its strong points and the Sense without abdicating from the strong points that make the monohulls boats vastly more preferred by cruisers to cruise, try, and in my opinion succeeds, to emulate some of the cats strong points, like a better interface between the cockpit and the interior, a bigger and more agreeable cockpit and sailing with small angles of heel.

I did not mean to offend you neither I was being defensive, quite the contrary, but I am not here to offend noone and if you feel offended with what i said I am really sorry. no offense intended.

[robert sailor]

Polux your last pic's of "boat porn" were a bit over the top, god those are lovely boats to look at. We saw so many similar boats when we were in Italy, such beautiful lines some almost took your breath away.

[downunder]

Might well be the difference between sun seeking Europe and the med and the tropical regions of world where a good dingy, plenty of solar and shade (avoiding sun) go with the designs of cat designers.

I note with the charter trade the French builders have headed that way to satisfy the carribean charter trade. FJ still did not get their davits right with the new Helia if a thread on here has noted.

The best design is if davits, solar and shade are incorporated in the original design rather than left to after market.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Polux

Who said I was not Joking I see a perfect symmetry here when you said:


you can only be joking too and that's why I said you should use the brains, in the same way you said Robert to use his brains. It seems by your post that cats have more advantages than monohull boats and that Sense wants to duplicate them without managing.

If that was so there would not be more than 20 cruisers choosing a monohull to each one that chooses a cat. it is quite the opposite, monohull are the boats chosen by the vast majority of cruisers and that means that for the vast majority they offer a better package of advantages then the multihulls.

Of course each boat has its strong points and the Sense without abdicating from the strong points that make the monohulls boats vastly more preferred by cruisers to cruise, try, and in my opinion succeeds, to emulate some of the cats strong points, like a better interface between the cockpit and the interior, a bigger and more agreeable cockpit and sailing with small angles of heel.

I did not mean to offend you neither I was being defensive, quite the contrary, but I am not here to offend noone and if you feel offended with what i said I am really sorry. no offense intended.

I'll assume English isn't your first language. Because once again I find myself accused of saying things I haven't said. I never told Robert to use his brains for instance.

Cats do have advantages over monohulls. These are pretty much indisputable. Draught for instance. Not many cats draw more than 1.2 -1.3m. And many are much less. Not many mono's draw so little.

The cockpit and the saloon on the same level and the ease of transition from inside to outside. Again, not may mono's have this. And that's one of the advantages the Sense has emulated.

But mono's have a major advantage, which is probably a big factor in their sales advantage. They're cheaper. Cheaper to buy, and cheaper to keep in a marina.

Daewoos sell in higher numbers than Mercedes...

And Macdonalds is the worlds best selling food...

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Polux your last pic's of "boat porn" were a bit over the top, god those are lovely boats to look at. We saw so many similar boats when we were in Italy, such beautiful lines some almost took your breath away.

Yes, but that is boat porn with a dinghy garage...all of them

[Polux]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

...
Cats do have advantages over monohulls. These are pretty much indisputable. Draught for instance. Not many cats draw more than 1.2 -1.3m. And many are much less. Not many mono's draw so little.

The cockpit and the saloon on the same level and the ease of transition from inside to outside. Again, not may mono's have this. And that's one of the advantages the Sense has emulated.

But mono's have a major advantage, which is probably a big factor in their sales advantage. They're cheaper. Cheaper to buy, and cheaper to keep in a marina.

Daewoos sell in higher numbers than Mercedes...

And Macdonalds is the worlds best selling food...

Again I find your reasoning strongly biased. If you use some logic you will see that there are many monos that are more expensive then cats with similar length, not to mention similar living area and that will destroy all your reasoning regarding the only advantage, or even the main, to be the price. Certainly it is one to consider on budget boats but not one in what regards what the European boat of the year calls luxury boats and there are lots of them around. Even so regarding space for space the price of a lagoon will not be very different, if not similar, to the one of an Oceanis.

Cats and monos, some are Daewoos, some are Mercedes and some are Ferraris. The Daewoos or Mercedes is not exclusive of each type.

I am not going to say to you what are the advantages of a mono over a cat since you seem to be blind to them, but they are as obvious as the advantages of a cat over a mono, that you seem to know very well
It is the global pack of advantages that a mono offers that leads the vast majoroty of cruisers to choose them, not a single one.

This does not mean, obviously, that your choice of a cat for cruising (or any that chose a cat) is not the right one for you as it is for me a performance monohull cruiser. Both types of boats are not the boats that are chosen by the vast majority of cruisers that chose what we can call a main market monohull cruiser, that is a boat less fast than mine but with more interior sail and less complicated to sail.

Not for a minute I would assume the posture of judging all other cruisers needs and tastes by my one taste and assume that the ones that chose a less good sailing boat in exchange for a marginally better interior and a more boring boat to sail (on my perspective) don't know what they are doing and if they knew more about it, they would buy a boat the same type of mine.

But that's what you do all the time regarding the majority of cruisers that chose to have a monohull instead of a cat: Seriously, a Daewoo versus a Mercedes, or are you joking also regarding that...and all the rest

[Polux]

Regarding Monohull and Multihull performance in what regards racing boats with a short crew you guys should follow this Transat race that is revealing of the strong and weak points of each type of boat and that's partially applicable to performance cruiser monohulls and multihulls.

With bad weather the monos gain advantage, with upwind sailing also, downwind and with weaker winds the multis fly.

Now the huge Ultime maxi trimarans are well ahead but when it was really rough the much smaller Open 60, or at least the best of them made almost an equal game. In what regards the 50 class trimaran and the Open60, only the two best are ahead of the Open60 (very tricky boats to sail the class50) all the others are behind and some are making equal game with the fastest of the smaller class 40.

Route du Rhum – Destination Guadeloupe

Strong winds ahead and also some upwind sailing. It is going to be interesting. Some Trimarans start already to break due to the sea conditions:
Route du Rhum – Destination Guadeloupe[gallery]/11/

PS Not that one. He collided with a cargo ship. A Multi 50 lost the mast.

[Budawang]

Good to see some passionate debate.

Cats do still seem to have the edge for what I'm interested in: a live-aboard cruiser well suited to occasional blue water passage-making in warm/temperate and tropical regions. Something that's great on the hook but I can eventually sail back to Australia from the Med (over a couple of years) with confidence. Cats still seem to be the best practical albeit expensive choice. However, I find monos aesthetically more pleasing and there's something about the Sense design that I find exciting. Realistically though, I have to find the best option for the Admiral who doesn't enjoy ocean sailing and is prone to seasickness and claustrophobia. The more "house like" the better as far as she's concerned.

Two things the admiral hates: rocking at anchor and un-seakindly sea-sickness inducing motion under sail. I'd love to know how a Sense 43/46 stacks up against a 36-40 foot cat on these two criteria. Indeed, how does it compare to other monos?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Polux

Again I find your reasoning strongly biased.

And of course yours isn't.

Certainly there are some very expensive monohulls. Are you going to claim these sell in greater numbers than catamarans too?

IMO the Sense has some nice features. It's at least an attempt to make a monohull as liveable as a cat. IMO it doesn't quite get there, but still it's an improvement. I'd still take a cat over it though.

And here's a difference between us Polux. I've owned, sailed, raced, cruised and lived aboard both mono's and cat's. My choice is based on real life personal experience, not bias or preconception.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

And of course yours isn't.

I try not to. At least I don't say that a given type of boat, multihulls or monohulls is better than the other.

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Certainly there are some very expensive monohulls. Are you going to claim these sell in greater numbers than catamarans too?

I think it is evident. I believe you can only not notice that because you are not in Europe where most of the sailboats, specially the new ones are. Just some brands of luxury high quality boats, boats that cost probably as much or more then most cats with the same length (and have therefore a smaller interior area):

Halberg-Rassy, Najad, Gunfleet,Oyster, Solaris, Mylius, Advanced yachts, Luffe, Gieffe, Faurby, Regina de Vindo, Sirius, Italia yachts, Xc Yachts, Nordship, Sly yachts, Discovery yacht, Ice yachts, Amel, Contest, CR yachts, Sunbeam, Arcona, Aureus yachts, Saare, Garcia, Grand Soleil, Comet, Wauquiez, Southerly, Swan, Brenta and many more, not to mention brands that only make big yachts like Baltic, Southern wind or wally. These are just some that come to my mind.

The luxury market, meaning by that boats that are considerably more expensive than mass production boats and contrary to those, is a market that is growing fast.

Certainly all of them considered together, I see incomparably more of them than cats and I sail about 2500NM on each summer on the area where there are the biggest density of sailboats. I see a lot of boats and not many cats.

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

the Sense has some nice features.. I'd still take a cat over it though...
And here's a difference between us Polux. I've owned, sailed, raced, cruised and lived aboard both mono's and cat's. My choice is based on real life personal experience, not bias or preconception.

and that seems to be your bias: you seem to believe that your needs, what you like is what everybody should like. What you or I like regarding cruising boats is completely irrelevant to other cruisers with different life styles and different tastes and that's why there are on the market so many different types of boats.

But the fact is that the predominant choice regarding the needs and the tastes of the vast majority of cruisers is the mono-hull cruising boat, being it a mass market boat or a luxury boat and that should be evident to you given the huge difference in numbers regarding the sales of each type. Go to the biggest boat show (Dusseldorf) and compare the huge area occupied with mono-hulls cruisers and the tiny one with some cats and cruising trimarans, that would give you an idea of the interest each boat raise on cruisers.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Polux

I try not to. At least I don't say that a given type of boat, multihulls or monohulls is better than the other.

LOL! As far as I've seen you've said very little else!