Beneteau oceanis 55

[robert sailor]

All boats are never exactly equal in any situation, but a good rule of thumb is to avoid any beam sea that is high enough to be close to half your boat length. Beamy boats with deep fins do have more to trip over and broach, but we are not talking about that, having good rules of thumb beat the hell out of doing math in the middle of a storm. Personally I would sail a Contessa 32 anywhere including high latitudes. I can not say that about high volume production boats.

But you're right, beamy boats always self right.

[Raven Odyssey]

Originally Posted by Polux

????? Great confusion there. I don't know about what you are talking about but I think you should read the RCD requirements regarding boat stability instead of looking to a magazine article that is not even about that.

Polux, You definitely have a ton of knowledge floating around in your cranium. You must have been a great engineer/architect at some point in your life, but man...you need to find a less abrasive way to deliver your message when in disagreement with someone else's argument. The manner in which you so matter-of-factly dismiss competing opinions makes you appear brash and arrogant.

I find myself wanting to disagree with you simply because of the way you communicate.

Of course, I will disagree with you regarding the comfort, aesthetics, and passagemaking/bluewater cruising comfort of pizza boats, but that argument is based on personal preference and is subjective - much like saying blue is a better color than red.

No disrespect intended, just my 2¢

[Raven Odyssey]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

All boats are never exactly equal in any situation, but a good rule of thumb is to avoid any beam sea that is high enough to be close to half your boat length. Beamy boats with deep fins do have more to trip over and broach, but we are not talking about that, having good rules of thumb beat the hell out of doing math in the middle of a storm. Personally I would sail a Contessa 32 anywhere including high latitudes. I can not say that about high volume production boats.



But you're right, beamy boats always self right.

Cats are beamy, and almost never self right...[emoji6]

[CbroTheDude]

Originally Posted by Raven Odyssey

Polux, You definitely have a ton of knowledge floating around in your cranium. You must have been a great engineer/architect at some point in your life, but man...you need to find a less abrasive way to deliver your message when in disagreement with someone else's argument. The manner in which you so matter-of-factly dismiss competing opinions makes you appear brash and arrogant.

I find myself wanting to disagree with you simply because of the way you communicate.

Funny you right this when it would make even more sense replacing "Polux" with "Raven" at the beginning. Polux is chill and uses thorough reasoning at least.

[Raven Odyssey]

Originally Posted by CbroTheDude

Funny you right this when it would make even more sense replacing "Polux" with "Raven" at the beginning. Polux is chill and uses thorough reasoning at least.

Okay. I'll work my part...

[robert sailor]

Polux is a good guy, I enjoy lots of his stuff but at times he believes that only his point of view has any merit, fortunately that never happens with the rest of us, grin! Discussing stability on sailboats he is of the opinion that Nigel Calder knows nothing compared to him however I see Nigel Calder as a very bright guy who not only has a very deep knowledge about sailboats, their designs and their systems but on top of that he has been there and done that. He travels in circles that are all about sailing so with all due respect for our friend Polux if I was going to take advise from either one of these two gentlemen it would be Nigel Calder. I suspect many of you have a book or two of his aboard.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Raven Odyssey

Cats are beamy, and almost never self right...[emoji6]

There have been all sorts of studies on the subject of excess beam or some people's view of excess beam on mono hulls. The very thing that gives a beamy boat additional form stability also gives them stability when capsized, surely that makes sense.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

All boats are never exactly equal in any situation, but a good rule of thumb is to avoid any beam sea that is high enough to be close to half your boat length. Beamy boats with deep fins do have more to trip over and broach, but we are not talking about that, having good rules of thumb beat the hell out of doing math in the middle of a storm. Personally I would sail a Contessa 32 anywhere including high latitudes. I can not say that about high volume production boats.

But you're right, beamy boats always self right.

Its this a canting keel boat? i see those beamy boats very related to multihulls in the way that they have good intial stability until they reach the red dot line and who know whats next,, if you take a IMOCA in the capsize tests and flip it without canting the keel he stay turtle, now the way i see those new beamy boats with all those flat deck structures is something i always wonder in a capsize scenario.. off course waves action help to roll over again but ,,,time is a factor...

[Bubu delaMancha]

Originally Posted by AJPT

Yes it is interesting that they always mention hanse. I guess beneteau main rival is Hanse now. Hanse are the second largest boat builders in the world, they recently won boat builder of the year award too. They must be doing something right.

We are a cruising couple yes, we don't have our heart set on the 55, it's a option. Been on the 48 a few times, can't seem to get excited about that. Would rather have a hanse 505 or go for something a bit more up market like wauquiez pilot 48 or grand soleil 46.

Everything is a trade off, I'm sure we will find the right Boat in the end.

What are you leaning towards at the moment?

Forgot to say, there is a new hanse 535 coming out soon, I've heard it will have a lot of styling cues from the 588 and 575.

Well that all depends on the budget and the taste. I would love to buy Discovery 55. If you look on youtube, there are some good reviews. I think Chris Beeson reviewed Discovery 57. What a lovely boat. I do like Hallberg-Rassy, not hte interior colours though. Also Contest from Netherlands are lovely boats. Also have a look at Garcia Exploration 52. It's go anywhere boat.
I think Oysters are a little bit over-rated, gaining mainly from the past and from the good name they built for them. I work for engineering firm in London, doing 3D modelling, CFD & FEA simulations and do see the lazy approach to improving things...and i do think this goes across different industries. And then it's stamped with: If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Its this a canting keel boat? i see those beamy boats very related to multihulls in the way that they have good intial stability until they reach the red dot line and who know whats next,, if you take a IMOCA in the capsize tests and flip it without canting the keel he stay turtle, now the way i see those new beamy boats with all those flat deck structures is something i always wonder in a capsize scenario.. off course waves action help to roll over again but ,,,time is a factor...

Yes Neil it is, it's an older Vendee Globe racer in which Autissier spent a very long time upside down and was finally rescued by a very brave sailor Soldini . I think after the yachting world took this in they made it compulsory that all these Vendee Globe boats had to self right. Looking at the stability curves I don't think any modern high production boats could pass this same test or even come close but maybe Polux has an opinion?

[Van Der Beek]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Understand your boat and her statistics

Great read very interesting, thanks for sharing.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

All boats are never exactly equal in any situation, but a good rule of thumb is to avoid any beam sea that is high enough to be close to half your boat length. Beamy boats with deep fins do have more to trip over and broach, but we are not talking about that, having good rules of thumb beat the hell out of doing math in the middle of a storm. Personally I would sail a Contessa 32 anywhere including high latitudes. I can not say that about high volume production boats.

But you're right, beamy boats always self right

Yes, it seems that for you those rules of thumb that you are going to search at several doubtful sources are better than good maths and science. That resumes your approach.

By the way, regarding rule of thumb there is one that relates the difficulty to capsize the boat with the beam of the boat. The beamier the more difficult to capsize.

It is as ridiculous as "your" rule of thumb that refers a direct proportion between length and capsize risk, for the same reason: It assumes all boats with the same beam have an identical overall stability and that is also obviously wrong.

You have been dishonest in this discussion and I am out of it. I never said that beamy boats always self right. What I said was that the AVS of a beamy boat is not necessarily worst than the one of a narrow boat. Then, I don't know if by ignorance or absence of honesty, you post the photo of a 20 year old IMOCA racing boat inverted as "prof" that IMOCA boats are not able to re right themselves by their own means.

That boat was Isabelle's boat, a 1996 boat built for the the 1996-1997 Vendee globe where several boats capsized. After that race they considered that the boats have to have more stability and improve their capacity to re right themselves and new demands were made regarding the stability of the boats, namely a test that showed that they were able to do it, in flat water by its own means.

The boat on the photo is of a previous boat to those demands and would not have been accepted on the next vendee (2000). All the old boats had to be modified to be able to comply with the new stability and safety rules.

That capsize happened on the 1998 Around alone, a 2th rate circumnavigation for old IMOCAs and 2th rate sailors, a race with stops were Isabel and others could race with the old boats without being modified to comply with the new rules that would be needed for the 2000 Vendee globe.

Only after that race (2000 Vendee Globe) the IMOCAS were obliged to have this capacity:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIplsOf_DBQ

And from then, on the last 16 years not once a IMOCA was even inverted without having his stability compromised by the loss of the keel or loss of the ballast and since then around a hundred of IMOCAS have passed racing on the high latitudes of the Southern Ocean.

These very light (8T) very beamy and very deep fin keeled boats are among the safest boats on the planet and certainly not due to their displacement that is less than on most 40ft yachts and less than the double of the one of a Contessa 32.

Do you know of any RCD class A cruising sailboat that have remained inverted after being rolled?

I don't know of any and they are tens of thousands. I know of some (very few) that after some time, after re righting themselves sunk, due to damages provoked by the mast or other resulting from the roll, but none that had remained inverted.

[robert sailor]

You take yourself too seriously Polux and you didn't answer my question, do you think any modern high production cruiser could pass the self righting test the way that Vendee Globe racers do? It's a bit of a joke because we both know they would not. If you look at the STIX rating it will be pretty obvious that when it comes to high production cruising boats boats length is the most important factor in establishing stability ranges. I'm not saying that they are the only factor but the most important one in high production boats. It's the same reason that high production boats below the mid 30's rarely can be approved for the class A rating. Years ago the typical cruising boats were around 30 feet in length, some smaller and very few bigger than 40 feet. The weather reporting was mediocre at best so when you crossed oceans you needed a very seaworthy boat and there were many boats that were up to the challenge. But as I showed you in the attachment when you compare an older design like the Contessa 32 to a modern design like the Bavaria 32 for offshore sailing, the Bavaria simply does not measure up to be considered a safe offshore boat and that is not about how it's built but the design itself. It's shallow, lightly ballasted and very beamy. The large beam gives it a lot of initial stability but works against it on the total stability range.
The same basic design of boat but several feet longer will pass the class A requirement primarily because of its longer length. These days most new boats sailing offshore are much larger than in the years when I started crossing oceans and that increase in size has made them safer even though excessive beam and shallow draft are not a great asset on modern high production boats. As to your original question I haven't bothered to look for pictures of high production boats that have rolled, I'm sure that it's happened but fortunately the sailors of these boats use common sense and usually sail them in low latitudes or if in high latitudes they coastal sail or harbor hop.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

You take yourself too seriously Polux and you didn't answer my question, do you think any modern high production cruiser could pass the self righting test the way that Vendee Globe racers do? It's a bit of a joke because we both know they would not. ...But as I showed you in the attachment when you compare an older design like the Contessa 32 to a modern design like the Bavaria 32 for offshore sailing, the Bavaria simply does not measure up to be considered a safe offshore boat and that is not about how it's built but the design itself. It's shallow, lightly ballasted and very beamy. ....

Again and again!!!! Yes as I have said previously regarding the Dufour 310 the Bavaria is not like the Contessa 32 a cruiser racer or performance cruiser, it is not the same type of boat, not designed to race offshore, like the Contessa, not designed with the same criteria in mind and are therefore not comparable boats.

The Contessa 32 is a small old boat designed for maximum seaworthiness and speed, it is designed for Offshore work. The Bavaria 32 and the Dufour 310 were not designed for that but as coastal cruisers.

If you want to compare the Contessa 32 with a modern boat do it with a boat that had the same design criteria in mind, a boat like the Django 9.80.

You come, like the last time, saying that I don't reply to questions you never posted

But since you have posted now I can reply: No, no modern cruising sail boat will be able to re right itself in flat water, neither the old Contessa 32, so it is hard to understand why you ask.

It is not evidence enough to you the fact that not a single modern cruising sailboat had remained inverted (with an intact stability) on the conditions that lead to his inversion?

Even if there are many tens of thousands out there?

And don't you know that the stability demands have been increasing all the time since the RCD had been created, so the chances of that happen have become smaller with the new boats?

Tell you what. I have on my blog some long posts about stability. Go there and post here what you disagree. Maybe this conversation starts to have some sense.

[Raven Odyssey]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

There have been all sorts of studies on the subject of excess beam or some people's view of excess beam on mono hulls. The very thing that gives a beamy boat additional form stability also gives them stability when capsized, surely that makes sense.

I was agreeing with you...