Beneteau 46 - for circumnavigation?

[Lizzy Belle]

Originally Posted by Freshman

Would you choose Beneteau 46 (shallow keel- 1,70m)for sailing round the world?
Do you think it can be ''bluewater cruiser'' ?
Mast is deck stepped is it strong enough solution?
Has anybody sailed B46 in heavy weather?

No.
Yes.
Yes.
More then one person and more then once, would be my guess

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Its stupid to listen to people say buy old boats.
Would you buy a 1999 car and say its better than a new one off the showroom floor?

You're not smart listening to anybody who's telling you what to do
People who feel their way is the best or only "right" way to do it are best left ignored, in my experience.

The car analogy doesn't quite work out, IMHO.

I bought an old boat, cos she's very well built. And if I'm ever upgrading, I'll probably end up with an older Wauquiez.
That works for me, but that doesn't mean it's 'right' or 'wrong'. It's just my choice.

[GrahamHO]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

To be honest, I would buy a 40 year old Westsail 42/43 over a new production boat.

Now there's a boat. I'm only going by memory but there was an Auckland Tonga race around 1986. I think it was July, but not the cyclone season. (July is winter)
An intense storm hit the fleet, I think around half way to Tonga. It was a storm originating in the south as I recall. There was only ocean between the fleet and Antarctica thousands of miles to the south. There were lives lost, yachts abandoned and crews rescued. At least one of the abandoned yachts was recovered floating and still in good condition.

I'm pretty sure it was a Westsail as we briefly met the new owner a couple of years later and it looked like a Westsail to me.

I happened to be traveling on a small ship from Samoa to Tokelau a day after the worst of the storm, and several hundred miles north of the storm. The seas were like pyramids with most of the passengers sick on our first day. I was OK with ear patches.

[SimonV]

Originally Posted by GrahamHO

Well if I were intending to sail a factory mass produced boat around the World I would certainly be doing some strengthening and other modifications first.
But I am used to successfully doing such work and not afraid of doing it.
I would probably start with the main hatchway and reduce its size. Possibly I'd look at the volume of the cockpit and check whether it's floor could support a ton of water. At the same time I would see if the cockpit drains are adequate. I would also look at the fore hatch and likely strengthen that. I would certainly look at the cabin windows and likely reducing their size. Maybe I would make a small hard dodger. I would likely make changes to the galley and install hand grips inside the cabin. I could go on but I won't.
I would also be getting experienced opinions from others with the boat in front of them.
Before Jessica Watson sailed Emma's Pink Lady around the world her family reportedly spent a small fortune on preparing it.
It would be a fools errand to do nothing.

You are making these recommendations on what, your experience as an ocean crossing cruiser or are you a yacht designer of greater reputation than those at Beneteau?

I think we need to have a small curriculum vitae visible to the reader, so that the correct weight can be given to the advice posted.

[SimonV]

Originally Posted by GrahamHO

I was simply saying what I would do. People are free to do what they want. Incidentally if you can, look at a South Pacific weather map for today. There is a tropical cyclone forming near Samoa, and heading towards Niue. It wasn't showing 2 days ago and it is a good month ahead of the usual cyclone season. The Pacific Ocean is not always peaceful.
A tropical cyclone is only different from a hurricane in that it revolves clockwise.

And this is why cruisers bug out to the north or well south to NZ or go to Oz the cyclone season is upon us and only a fool would be in the area without a cyclone plan in place.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by GrahamHO

Now there's a boat. I'm only going by memory but there was an Auckland Tonga race around 1986. I think it was July, but not the cyclone season. (July is winter)
An intense storm hit the fleet, I think around half way to Tonga. It was a storm originating in the south as I recall. There was only ocean between the fleet and Antarctica thousands of miles to the south. There were lives lost, yachts abandoned and crews rescued. At least one of the abandoned yachts was recovered floating and still in good condition.

I'm pretty sure it was a Westsail as we briefly met the new owner a couple of years later and it looked like a Westsail to me.

I happened to be traveling on a small ship from Samoa to Tokelau a day after the worst of the storm, and several hundred miles north of the storm. The seas were like pyramids with most of the passengers sick on our first day. I was OK with ear patches.

I think you are referring to the "Queens Birthday Storm" of 1994. It was indeed a bitch of a storm, but I believe that the boat to which you refer is "Sophia", owned by Keith Levy. Not a Westsail at all, but an Atkins design similar in appearance to a W-32, but a timber one-off. Keith was not a very experienced sailor, and he and his lady crew opted to be taken off when the opportunity presented. The boat was recovered later, in usable nick. Oh... it wasn't a race at all, but a rally to Tonga.

As it happened, we were in Opua when they left... we were not ready to leave and were not part of the rally. For once, procrastination was a wise move, for two weeks later the weather was rather much nicer!

None of this has much to do with the question about the B-46, though. On that subject, while it wouldn't be my first choice, there are lots of such boats making successful passages all around the globe. To say that they are not capable of a circumnavigation is just silly, and shows the danger of stereotypes and prejudice and the foolishness of internet pundits.

Jim

[Juho]

Originally Posted by Freshman

Aren't B46 designed/made for such cruising?

I am not going to push it into the limits
("as long as your smart enough to know what to do and don't push to hard "
is important to note (no matter which boat you sail)

but I wonder what may happen if I meet such conditions.

Buying an older cruising boat is some kind of option but it will be really older 10-15 years more.

We all buy new or newer things as knowledge and materials develop and really 15 years old boat is better than the 5 years one?

I guess many people on this list think that current serial mass production boats are often not optimized for blue water cruising. It may be more typical to aim at low cost, speed and large size. What might be missing is strength, stability and maybe also comfort in rough seas. I believe some Beneteau 46 related comments follow these lines. And some others maybe think that in that deal you would get a lot of good stuff with the dollars you need to spend on it.

Different cruisers have different needs. Don't let anyone tell you which boat is the best, but make your own decision based on what your needs and preferences are. How much emphasis should one put on price, comfort, speed, safety etc.?

If you prefer a brand new boat to a used boat with some wear, that's one option. People who recommend used boats might think that they keep their value better, and that some known old models are better built than some new ones. A house that was built 100 years ago could be better and have a higher price tag than a newly built house. And sometimes the other way around. There is no single best boat but there might be a best boat for you.

The new technology does not make the new boats automatically better. New electronics can be installed in all boats. On the structural side last decades have seen developments like cored hull and carbon fibre. Those developments are not necessarily targeted for the needs of typical cruisers, unless you are interested especially in light weight boats and speed.

[Juho]

Originally Posted by deluxe68

I disagree that it is stupid to buy older boats. For the most part, boats are not built as heavy as they used to be. Pacific Seacraft is an exception along with Island Packet, from what I understand their design specs have always remained the same. I will use Nautors Swan as an example. The early S&S boats were overbuilt because the factory really did not know how much thickness was required in the hulls. Per their own workers you could almost use them as icebreakers. When they changed to Frers and Ron Holland they relied more on the iron/steel grid for strength and they used slightly thinner hulls. The newest boats are very thin and use carbon fiber and other newer materials. Looking at the overhangs, they get shorter as the boats get newer. The keel shape has also changed with the newer boats going away from the graceful slope of the S&S keels. I would think that the older boats would fare better if grounded. If I won the powerball and decided to get a new boat I would not buy a new Swan, I would buy an older boat and throw $$$$$ at it.

I would say that today there is maybe a wider scale of boats to choose from. Some manufacturers aim at speed, some want to provide luxury, some cheap boats for all, and some solid boats for cruising. The biggest and growing sector is probably the everyman category that wants to provide lots of good stuff in a competitive price range. It may be that the solid and serious cruiser category is today not a dominant category, but it is still there. I could take my own boat as an example. Nauticat still makes all their boats using solid GRP. Maybe not quite in icebreaker category, but something in that direction. There also are other cruising oriented manufacturers with similar or related goals. I believe Swan puts traditionally more emphasis on speed and racing capabilities, but probably not doing that in a cheap way (i.e. probably not forgetting strength related aspects altogether when planning their expensive boats).

[Mike R]

Here is my 2 Cents,
Ex Racer, my crew and I are sailing from BC to Chile. After a 2 year search it came down to a 461 in Seattle and a Peterson 46. I know, 2 completely different boats. We chartered a Bene 473 for 2 weeks in Grenada. Loved it . Boat sailed quite well . We purchased the Peterson. Why? , in short.... Comfort. Though the Bene was a bit roomier, it was NOT a comfortable boat in heavier seas, I did not like how she was pushed around in following seas , and at anchor we often felt like we were a fishing bobber. Storage.... 1/2 of the Petersons. The 1982 Peterson did, I say did ,need some updating to the tune of 100k but it's now done and all is new. COMFORT is a very important consideration and frankly I'm glad we kept an open mind. We couldn't be happier


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by japarker11

I would be very interested in hearing more about MarkJ's recent passage to St Maarten in terms of boat performance and his sailing procedures and decisions in regard to speed, crew comfort and response to seastate and stress levels on the sail plan and rigging.

Buried in his posts are these impressive facts:

Rhumb line distance Beaufort to St. Maarten. =. 1230 NM.

Passage Duration. =. 10 days

Remember , this is to windward , so speed and distance over ground goes up by 1.3.

Also, he was swimming up the river (Gulfstream) for a good portion.

Not bad for a production boat, eh?

I would listen closely to his experiences and opinions relative to your requirements.

John

That's a very good passage, indeed... Especially considering Mark probably did it singlehanded, as he typically seems to do...

Here's another from the opposite side of the spectrum, on a boat many today would consider an "outmoded" design, and one likely to spend a longer time at sea during a passage...

I recently brought a Valiant 42 down to Tortola as part of the Caribbean 1500 Rally with a crew of 3, including her new owner...

Best trip south I've ever had in the fall. Our elapsed time from the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel to Tortola, a distance of 1380 NM according to our tracker, was 8 days 16 hours, with a total of 26 hours of running under power... Nice to see an oldie but goodie from a guy like Bob Perry is still able to strut her stuff, and in comfort, this trip was one of the more relaxing I've ever had to the islands...

We corrected out to 2nd in our class, behind the Swan 48 ISBJORN, which had been given a mysteriously favorable rating... Whenever a S&S Swan 48 is rated slower than a Hunter 430 and a Tanton 44, everyone in that class knows 2nd is likely the best they can hope for... ;-)

Overall in the Cruising Division, we corrected out to 3rd, behind a pair of Swan 48s, both old and new... We were the 3rd smallest boat in this year's 1500, so our elapsed passage time was quicker than a lot of bigger boats, including a surprising number of multihulls... Icing on the cake for her new owner, was being awarded the prize for the "Most Beautiful Yacht" in this year's event, determined by a vote of all the participants...

The sole Beneteau - a 423 from Canada - didn't fare so well... They finished about 3 days behind us on the calendar, and 5.5 days slower corrected time when their large amount of motoring was factored in...

Sadly, one of the Latest & Greatest production offerings in the fleet - a 2007 Hanse 430 - was forced to retire and divert to Bermuda with a serious rudder failure...

[malcolmlj]

As mentioned, all Halberg Rassys have deck stepped masts and they are one of the finest blue water yachts built.
Deck stepped versus keel stepped is a theological distinction.
What matters is how well is it installed, and most of all how well do YOU sail it.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

But please convince me one of these new boats are better, safer and built as well as a 25+ year old Swan, Cheribini, Hallberg-Rassy or Sundeer.

Because I have raced from the Canaries to Argentina in a Swan 651 and I know you are talking dogs bullocks
As for the older Waquize comment from someone, thats dogs bullocks too because I raced from Lisbon to the Canaries in a 54.

But there won't ever be convincing anyone anything so I just chuck my stuff in the ring and folks can take it or leave it. And the most interesting about reducing the size of a production boats companionway for sea still has me pissing myself laughing

Oh, and 'over built'. Why is that attribute beneficial? OVER built. A great specification: we need 1 inch X but lets blindly, panicky and for no reason whack in 10 inch X and lets fire the designer anyway because he's f'ing useless because he didn't over over build he only over built it. Maybe they could do a budget one where its under over built?

[Celestialsailor]

People here have challenged others on their ability to make the claims they do while others make statements about boats that have successfully gone from point A to point B without incident. The point is that the OP is on a forum asking a question about a particular vessel when he should be contacting a seasoned surveyor with years of experience. Everything else is hearsay and opinion.

[Exile]

MarkJ -- an inquiry from one of your followers (Blue Crab) on a recent thread discussing solo sailing:

The biggest issue in solo sailing is watchkeeping. If MarkJ is reading, I'm curious as to his method, and especially how many contacts he had after leaving Beaufort just a couple of weeks ago.

Here's the link (post #125): Tell me about Solo Sailing - Page 9 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

I'd be curious too, of course. You mentioned all upwind. Did you take the "thorny path," or head across the stream from Beaufort & then down "I-64"? Not exactly sure, but I thought a strong point of your particular Bene was its good upwind capability. And yes, Mark was just in NYC as I recall for the summer, and before that the Carib again last winter -- all singlehanded passages I believe, and sometimes with video!

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

But please convince me one of these new boats are better, safer and built as well as a 25+ year old Swan, Cheribini, Hallberg-Rassy or Sundeer.

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Because I have raced from the Canaries to Argentina in a Swan 651 and I know you are talking dogs bullocks
As for the older Waquize comment from someone, thats dogs bullocks too because I raced from Lisbon to the Canaries in a 54.

But there won't ever be convincing anyone anything so I just chuck my stuff in the ring and folks can take it or leave it. And the most interesting about reducing the size of a production boats companionway for sea still has me pissing myself laughing

Oh, and 'over built'. Why is that attribute beneficial? OVER built. A great specification: we need 1 inch X but lets blindly, panicky and for no reason whack in 10 inch X and lets fire the designer anyway because he's f'ing useless because he didn't over over build he only over built it. Maybe they could do a budget one where its under over built?

Sorry...I'm not well versed in the Queens English but I think the translation of dog bullocks into the language of us Colonist is bull s#*t. As for my previous post. We're not Surveyors or Naval Architects. Because you raced on particular brands...(how should I state this as a Colonist)...Oh...just because you are a hub-cap, doesn't make you a wheel...
So I'm not convinced newer boats are safer or better built than the aforementioned list I stated. Cheers Mate...oh, wait.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Exile

MarkJ -- an inquiry from one of your followers (Blue Crab) on a recent thread discussing solo sailing:
Here's the link (post #125): Tell me about Solo Sailing - Page 9 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

I'd be curious too,

OK, I will post to that

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

but I think the translation of dog bullocks into the language of us Colonist is bull s#*t. As for my previous post. We're not Surveyors or Naval Architects. Because you raced on particular brands...(how should I state this as a Colonist)...Oh...just because you are a hub-cap, doesn't make you a wheel...

Ha! Internet forums would wither and die in a week if we took your advice to only get informed advice... and even surveyors can only offer opinions.

And if internet forums withered and died what would we do all day??????????????????????????????