Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Polux

One of the things German boats more even them French boats have is a huge amount of options that will make for considerable different boats....at a price.

In what regards Bavaria bought at a good dealer with a good manufacturer connection (the one where I bought my boat was selling over 200 boats a year) what they can offer as extras is just huge, not mentioning that the factory list of options is already impressive. Some options that they can offer:

6 winches instead of four, bigger winches, different masts (on my boat they offered 3 options - all selden) different quality sails, different quality sailing hardware, different keel, not only in draft but in material (lead), possibility of having integrated safety system with fixed lines for harnesses, not to mention interior and electronics.

I had that stupid idea that I was buying a boat for live so I went higher specs in everything and a boat that had the basic price of 99 000 euros costed me 150 000 euros

But that one with big draft, lead keel, performance mast and sails was not a slow boat. On my marina there was a guy with a new Beneteau Oceanis 393 and my boat was faster and pointed better (with a big 150% genoa) that his bigger Beneteau.

I remember a passage between Minorca and Sardinia done with an average speed well over 7k (weak wind and the start and finish) with many hours, under a beautiful moonshine, with the boat going over 9K, many times reaching over 10K and it was not the only time that I had made very fast passages, outsailing bigger boats.

Our 33 footer sailed quite well. We had a 135% genua and if we had switched to say 105% then we could have gotten closer to the wind.

We bought this from a charter company. 40 hours on the motor clock. It was brand new (had been chartered twice) and it even smelled like a new boat.

We had many wonderful sails on that boat and never, repeat never, felt nervous about the boat -even in gale force winds and heavy chop like we get here in the Baltic.

Many say the Bavarias are flimsy and "cheapened down". I'll readily admit my Jeaneau is a considerably heavier build - but the price tag was also quite a bit higher. Had we not wanted to do an RTW - we would have kept the bavaria - it was fine for cruising the Baltic and down to the med.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by carstenb

First a disclaimer, I owned and sailed a BAvaria 33 Cruiser (2006) for 4 years. We sold it because we decided we wanted to go permanent crusiing and do an RTW. Therefore we wanted a bigger boat. During the 4 years we owned the boat (bought after 1 season from a german charter company), we had -0- problems with the boat, only regular maintenance. We sailed in fairly heavy weather and never felt nervous about the boat surviving.

In answer to the question : Why Bavaria bashing? a number of years ago (20?), Bavaria had some boats lose their keels (the Match series I believe). Bavaria stepped up to the plate - admitted they keel attachments were undersized, recalled the boats and fixed them.

OK - they screw up - but they did admit it and fix the problem.

This issue has affected their brand image ever since. Lots of boaters, when told you own a Bavaria say "Bavaria - arent' those are the boats the keels fall off?"

Other issues that seem to dominate are they are not "bluewater" boats. They are too flimsy, oil-can, etc etc when faced with heavy weather.

To me this illustrates a problem with the person making the comment not the boat. Bavaria (and ohter baot manufacturers) are generally very cognizant of the markets they want to serve.

Bavaria is not trying to serve the Bluewater or passagemaking High Latitude market. They are serving the weekend coastal cruising market. This market demands comfort and reasonable sailing characteristics. As someone once said "These boats are only out in 25 knot winds by accident"

Which is true.

So much of the bashing is due to :
1- The comment maker not understanding what the boat is designed for (much as bashing a Ferrari for being a poor car to cross the sahara in or a land rover for not being the fastest car off the line). Here the criticism is simply unwarrranted, due to the criticiser not knowing what he is talking about

2- In an effort to keep costs low, Bavaria and Hunter are pushing the envelope of design and boat building. Naturally this results in a number of "baby sicknesses" that other more conservative boat builders don't experience. An example here is the furling genua - I'm old enough to remember the great controversy over this. The sailing world was split in two, those that like the furlers and those that claimed they were tatamount to committing suicide.

Most boats today have furling genuas.

So back to my Bavaria 33. Would I sail that RTW? My answer is no. The hardware (remember this was built for charter) was simply not heavy duty enough for my taste.

carsten

Carsten I was just reading the thread on keel failures and I notice that 2 Danish sailors lost their keel sailing a Bavaria to the Azores in 2005 and fortunately were able to get into their raft and were picked up at sea. So the company has had boats other than the Match series that have lost keels and just maybe they have earned the reputation.

When you are making long offshore passages you have nothing to do for hours on end but think and the last thing I would want on my mind was the possibility of the keel falling off.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Carsten I was just reading the thread on keel failures and I notice that 2 Danish sailors lost their keel sailing a Bavaria to the Azores in 2005 and fortunately were able to get into their raft and were picked up at sea. So the company has had boats other than the Match series that have lost keels and just maybe they have earned the reputation.

When you are making long offshore passages you have nothing to do for hours on end but think and the last thing I would want on my mind was the possibility of the keel falling off.

I wouldn't want to spend my time worrying about that either. But if 2 or 3 keel problems are spread over the tens of thousands of bavarias out there, well every boat has its share of problems. Even Swans and Najads etc.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by carstenb

I wouldn't want to spend my time worrying about that either. But if 2 or 3 keel problems are spread over the tens of thousands of bavarias out there, well every boat has its share of problems. Even Swans and Najads etc.

I agree with you but have you ever heard of a Swan or Najad lose a keel...I haven't!

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

I agree with you but have you ever heard of a Swan or Najad lose a keel...I haven't!

Not lose a keel - but they have also had their share of detractors as have all boats.

Let's face it - if we look long and hard enough we can find a horror story about virtually anything

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Not lose a keel - but they have also had their share of detractors as have all boats.

Let's face it - if we look long and hard enough we can find a horror story about virtually anything

I will not debate that statement in general but I would think hard and long before I bought a boat from a builder that had a history of loosing keels because I can not think of anything worse that could happen to a boat at sea. I am not aware of any middle of the road builder that has had a keel fall off at sea but we now see a couple of the entry level builders that have had keels fall off, that would not pass my smell test as it tells me the engineering margins while working on "most" of the boats is not adequate for all of the boats. Which is another way of saying that these boats are built to engineering standards that are very close to the line.

[Kenomac]

The Ford Motor company produced over three million Pinto model automobiles during the 1970's. Of the three million, only 27 deaths were attributed to rear end collision fires. But after the uproar about the rear end fires, and the demands by the public for a better built car that wouldn't catch fire following a rear ending, the Pinto brand never recovered and was the butt of jokes for many years. Ask yourself, when was the last time you even saw a Pinto on the road, or a Chevy Vega for that matter? 30 years ago?

My point is, maybe all it takes is a couple dozen keels and rudders to fall off over the production run of several thousand boats in order to get the buyers attention and develope some doubts regarding the general quality of the vessel and tarnish the brand.

Ken

[S/V Illusion]

A classic example of the problem personified. All show...

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Robert,

Are members like me who had a less than pleasant experience following the purchase of a modern Hunter flagship boat allowed to comment on this thread? Or, only members who still own and love their Hunter.

Sufficient to say, for boat with an original sticker price exceeding $250,000 back in 1998.... we expected more. We moved on.

So the way I understand the (new) rules/definition regarding "bashing," is that only positive comments should be allowed into the debate according to a few special Hunter owners, otherwise.... delicate feelings might be harmed. Apparently, the Hunter reputation is so fragile, that posting comments regarding actual failures should not be allowed to be discussed on CF according to some.

Ken

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

A classic example of the problem personified. All show...

When I referred to expecting more, we "expected" the keel to remain attached, the floor boards not to warp, systems including the engine, electrical wiring and waste hoses to be more accessible etc. Small stuff really... maybe others are willing to put up with those minor inconveniences. We weren't.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Sufficient to say, for boat with an original sticker price exceeding $250,000 back in 1998....

Off topic, but that was the sailaway price of a fully loaded Manta 40 catamaran in 1998.

I bring this up because catamarans are widely sited as being way more expensive than monohulls. I don't see this being the case myself when comparing reasonably close examples - even today, but that old saw is trotted out continually.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program…

Mark

[letsgetsailing3]

Seemed about the right time to repeat this:

This is not about Hunters, Bavarias or Beneteaus. They're fine enough boats. It's likely more about group membership and the desire of individuals to feel better about themselves though an association with the luxury products they own or want to own. It's the very basis of capitalism.

If people couldn't differentiate themselves through the products they own, luxury brands would go out of business. If they're on a watch forum, they gotta bash the Timex. How else can they justify the enormous sums they paid for their Tag Heuer or their Rolex? They can't admit that they paid more for their timepiece just to differentiate themselves from all those other dorks with watches. They're a discerning time-piece buyer, and can afford the very best.

It's similar with some sports fans. A little of their identity is tied up in that branding. Gotta get those hats and jerseys -- gotta support the team! They'll argue endlessly to prove how pitiful or shameless the rival team is. It's clear their rival can only be supported by buffoons.

What else would the reason be? Otherwise, it really makes no sense for someone with (or who wants) one brand of boat to spend a lot of time bashing another boat brand.


Also see: Fight club monolog about you not being your Khackis.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

When I referred to expecting more, we "expected" the keel to remain attached, the floor boards not to warp, systems including the engine, electrical wiring and waste hoses to be more accessible etc. Small stuff really... maybe others are willing to put up with those minor inconveniences. We weren't.

Not picking on you but rather the concept of criticizing. Every boat, regardless of how well designed or constructed, can have problems. I don't doubt your personal experience but there is nothing to base any conclusion on that any contemporary builder is at fault.

Keels are typically attached at commissioning. Owners may not properly control moisture and humidity affecting wood floors. Accessibility is a function of practicality just as big engines in small cars for one example.

The point is all boats share similar maladies. My present boat is far from cheap but suffers from the same flaws as our previous Hunter did. No more. No less.

Making generalities is never a good idea. But that doesn't stop lots of folks from trying. Unfortunately, this forum is infamous for one note singers.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Seemed about the right time to repeat this:

This is not about Hunters, Bavarias or Beneteaus. They're fine enough boats. It's likely more about group membership and the desire of individuals to feel better about themselves though an association with the luxury products they own or want to own. It's the very basis of capitalism.

If people couldn't differentiate themselves through the products they own, luxury brands would go out of business. If they're on a watch forum, they gotta bash the Timex. How else can they justify the enormous sums they paid for their Tag Heuer or their Rolex? They can't admit that they paid more for their timepiece just to differentiate themselves from all those other dorks with watches. They're a discerning time-piece buyer, and can afford the very best.

It's similar with some sports fans. A little of their identity is tied up in that branding. Gotta get those hats and jerseys -- gotta support the team! They'll argue endlessly to prove how pitiful or shameless the rival team is. It's clear their rival can only be supported by buffoons.

What else would the reason be? Otherwise, it really makes no sense for someone with (or who wants) one brand of boat to spend a lot of time bashing another boat brand.


Also see: Fight club monolog about you not being your Khackis.

Your hypotheses may be correct for a certain subset of boat owners.

I know when I was looking for my boat, I was looking for a number of particular attributes. As we all know every boat is a compromise, & I felt that I could accept the shortcomings that my boat has.

I find it interesting however, how vehement some brand owners are of their choice of boats, while not acknowledging that the compromise that they'd made others may view as things they could not accept. That doesn't make any one wrong, however nor should one be short-sighted about deficiencies for purpose that your boat may have.

All that being said, I think many of us have learned some things from these threads that will cause us to rethink some of the manner in which our boats have been constructed. Certainly one of the first things I'm going to do next week, is check what kind of backing plates my boat has.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by avb3

I know when I was looking for my boat, I was looking for a number of particular attributes. As we all know every boat is a compromise, & I felt that I could accept the shortcomings that my boat has.

I find it interesting however, how vehement some brand owners are of their choice of boats, while not acknowledging that the compromise that they'd made others may view as things they could not accept. That doesn't make any one wrong, however nor should one be short-sighted about deficiencies for purpose that your boat may have.

All boats are compromises.

I can somewhat understand someone defending their choice in boat. I find it more difficult to understand someone pressing the issue on someone else's choice in boat. There really isn't the need.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

All boats are compromises.

That is exactly correct, and if the perfect boat is ever built, then of course all other makers will soon go out of business.

I know several shortcomings of my boat, things that while I understand why, wish maybe that they would have been done differently, but it came the closest to fitting my wish list and be inside of the budget I had set.