Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

[scuba0_1]

Originally Posted by Exile

Agreed if "bashing" means subjective, negative comments about a boat brand that is unsubstantiated, and even the bias in those are pretty easy to figure out. But I don't think credible, fact-based reports of specific failures constitute "bashing." Besides, if somebody merely read the report of the Bene rudder problem here w/o reading the entire thread, they may miss the points made about how many of these Bene rudders are out there not failing, and can judge accordingly. In the same vein, trying to dissuade someone from not starting a thread about a cleat failure on a Hunter could leave the impression that it's on account of a cheap build, when the reality could very well be that no cleat could have withstood the forces at play from the wind & seas, along with some potential operator error.

I could only have wished for some Bristol "bashing" if it would have resulted in my being better informed about the problems I've had with my centerboard lifting apparatus!

You would not have found the info you were looking for here. True owners giving information or issue they're having or had Is not this, I'ts not here. It's on owners threads. This only reinforces that you would be crazy to listen to any info on this site regarding types of boats because you can't differentiate the truly informed and the ones that are guessing. Because the mods allow all information instead of making us state true facts politely and limiting a thread once it's has been discussed.

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[a64pilot]

It's not the information, it's how it's presented that sometimes sets the tone.
If I post "another brand X has rudder failure and sinks, again" is different than "rudder failure causes sinking".
First one seems more to denigrate brand X than to get information out and of course gets the owners of brand X on the defensive pretty quick. We all are defensive about our prides and joy, with as much blood, sweat and tears that go into one, it's hard not to be.

I too want to hear about every failure, especially about similar designs and particularly the same boat that I have, to hopefully prevent that failure on mine.


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[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by weavis

weavis got to go flying today.

Colleague has a Cirrus. A high and windy flight all controlled by computer.

I loved it.

Saw lots of boats from up there

Oh Lord, a plastic airplane, can I Bash? Please
Just kidding of course, glad you had fun


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[weavis]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Oh Lord, a plastic airplane, can I Bash? Please
Just kidding of course, glad you had fun


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Knew it would bring out the pilots. Man Im happy toodling in the Cessna but this is a whole new world. He had to download an update before we took off!

I did my own bashing up there...... but not much....

Id have one if a couple of mill was spare for purchase and upkeep. But then Id probably want a Gunboat instead.............. decisions decisions.

[Greatketch33]

Moreover, when a thread becomes lengthy, and when the topic meanders, then it becomes less likely one who comes upon the post to fully read all entries and bring forth their own conclusions.

I have a cat ketch that has a half wishbone booms; should I feel slighted each time someone tells me to get my booms repaired to straighten them out? Or I should have shrouds like real sailboats, and more importantly so one has something to hold when navigating the deck?

I enjoy the forums and have learned that the human condition of expression is an ingredient to our community; regardless of the type of boat one owns, sails, or repairs.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Exile

...miss the points made about how many of these Bene rudders are out there not failing, and can judge accordingly. In the same vein, trying to dissuade someone from not starting a thread about a cleat failure on a Hunter could leave the impression that it's on account of a cheap build, when the reality could very well be that no cleat could have withstood the forces at play from the wind & seas, along with some potential operator error.

I could only have wished for some Bristol "bashing" if it would have resulted in my being better informed about the problems I've had with my centerboard lifting apparatus!

Yes, it has to do with the intention a given subject is posted. If it comes to a guy that only post negatives comments about Beneteau you can bet that he is not interesting on how it was possible that so many Beneteaus circumnavigated without problems. He decided that he does not like the way Beneteaus are built, judged them crap and it is not interested in any information that contradicts his opinion, namely that the boats are able to do what they are designed for and give satisfaction to many clients.

Yes you are right, if someone is talking regarding the problems a specific boat that is useful information but normally those problems are not found in all boats of a brand but some models. when someone talks about all boats of a brand as if they were crap he is bashing the brand. If they were crap on a very competitive boat market, they would be out of business for long. If you see some saying good things about their boats, being them Bavaria, Beneteau or Hunter it is because there are satisfied clients...and people are not satisfied with crap products.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Polux

Yes, it has to do with the intention a given subject is posted. If it comes to a guy that only post negatives comments about Beneteau you can bet that he is not interesting on how it was possible that so many Beneteaus circumnavigated without problems. He decided that he does not like the way Beneteaus are built, judged them crap and it is not interested in any information that contradicts his opinion, namely that the boats are able to do what they are designed for and give satisfaction to many clients.

Yes you are right, if someone is talking regarding the problems a specific boat that is useful information but normally those problems are not found in all boats of a brand but some models. when someone talks about all boats of a brand as if they were crap he is bashing the brand. If they were crap on a very competitive boat market, they would be out of business for long. If you see some saying good things about their boats, being them Bavaria, Beneteau or Hunter it is because there are satisfied clients...and people are not satisfied with crap products.

Thanks for the Oyster information. Glad to see the problem was with a 26 year old boat with an old spade rudder design and not any of the newer Oysters. Looks like the company addressed the issue and weakness of the rudder design many years ago when they switched to full skeg mounted rudders. Thanks again for the info and heads up. It's good to know our model is not at risk.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

I'll repeat my assessment, as the original topic gets lost among all the adamant bashing.

This is not about Hunters, Bavarias or Beneteaus. They're fine enough boats. It's likely more about group membership and the desire of individuals to feel better about themselves though an association with the luxury products they own or want to own. It's the very basis of capitalism.

....

It's similar with some sports fans. A little of their identity is tied up in that branding. Gotta get those hats and jerseys -- gotta support the team! They'll argue endlessly to prove how pitiful or shameless the rival team is. It's clear their rival can only be supported by buffoons.
..

Nice post but you covered only half of it even if the subject is the same: It is not only about brands but about types of boats.

Guys that own old boats with an old design tend to feel that all modern designed boats are not as well designed or suited for bluewater sailing neither as strong or as well built as their boats, monohull sailors tend to think that multihulls are dangerous, multihull owners tend to think monohulls are slower in what regards cruising, the ones that like heavy slow boats will say that the lighter faster performance cruisers are race boats not suited for cruising and so on.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Thanks for the Oyster information. Glad to see the problem was with a 26 year old boat with an old spade rudder design and not any of the newer Oysters. Looks like the company addressed the issue and weakness of the rudder design many years ago when they switched to full skeg mounted rudders. Thanks again for the info and heads up. It's good to know our model is not at risk.

They finally abandoned the skeg rudders and on the last designs (not yet in all produced boats, just the last designed ones) they went for modern twin spade rudders, a good and efficient solution. Time will tell but I am convinced that from now on all new Oyster models will have this type of rudder that is in fact the better in what regards efficiency and reliability in cruising boats with the type of hull used by Oyster.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Polux

They finally abandoned the skeg rudders and on the last designs (not yet in all produced boats, just the last designed ones) they went for modern twin spade rudders, a good and efficient solution. Time will tell but I am convinced that from now on all new Oyster models will have this type of rudder that is in fact the better in what regards efficiency and reliability.

Two is better than one. Looks like we agree.

ken

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Polux

Nice post but you covered only half of it even if the subject is the same: It is not only about brands but about types of boats.

Guys that own old boats with an old design tend to feel that all modern designed boats are not as well designed or suited for bluewater sailing neither as strong or as well built as their boats, monohull sailors tend to think that multihulls are dangerous, multihull owners tend to think monohulls are slower in what regards cruising, the ones that like heavy slow boats will say that the lighter faster performance cruisers are race boats not suited for cruising and so on.

People have different opinions and that is for sure but often they are based on reality. There is certainly evidence out there to suggest that many of the cheaper boats are not built as well as the older quality boats, I'm not sure why anyone would get too defensive about this as it doesn't mean that their cheaper boat can't sail the oceans if they choose. It might cost a lot of money to refit and older quality boat and it would make sense for some people to choose to buy a newer cheaper boat but many will not make that compromise for a variety of reasons. I hear about the speeds but really the cruising boats that are generally used by most cruisers are pretty slow to begin with. I have never met another cruiser that sails at 20 knots. Whether you average 6 knots or 7 knots to me is not a big deal although I'd rather be doing 7 knots, LOL. On our recent crossing we were similar in time to several Cats, I'm sure if they were sailed more aggressively that might not be the case but generally the Cat guys are quite careful and conservative when they are crossing oceans. Even more important is the 95% of the time you are living aboard at anchor and making use of that space and storage if it is not well laid out it does become a big deal because its your home. This is where the Cats really shine There are some very cool boats these days and some of them sail very quickly but the people we meet every day are still sailing boats that have changed little.

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Come now.

This is not about Hunters, Bavarias or Beneteaus. They're fine enough boats. It's likely more about group membership and the desire of individuals to feel better about themselves though an association with the luxury products they own or want to own. It's the very basis of capitalism.

If people couldn't differentiate themselves through the products they own, luxury brands would go out of business. If they're on a watch forum, they gotta bash the Timex. How else can they justify the enormous sums they paid for their Tag Heuer or their Rolex? They can't admit that they paid more for their timepiece just to differentiate themselves from all those other dorks with watches. They're a discerning time-piece buyer, and can afford the very best.

It's similar with some sports fans. A little of their identity is tied up in that branding. Gotta get those hats and jerseys -- gotta support the team! They'll argue endlessly to prove how pitiful or shameless the rival team is. It's clear their rival can only be supported by buffoons.

What else would the reason be? Otherwise, it really makes no sense for someone with (or who wants) one brand of boat to spend a lot of time bashing another boat brand.

WELL SAID!!!!!

[robert sailor]

There is truth in this post for sure but its not always that simple. Everyone loves looking at a new Porsche, smelling the new leather and dreaming about driving it but very few people actually think that their Hyundai is as good as that Porsche. On this site people are trying to convince themselves that their Benni or Hunter is as good as a HR and that's one big difference.

[sailorboy1]

If you really pay attention on bashing type threads you will find that you don't really heard about anything that falls into an "overall" boat problem. What you will read about is the same boat with a problem, over and over and over and over. So maybe 10 boats with problems that you read about a 1,000 times till it becomes justification to make a wide sweeping statement against all the other boats of that manufacturer and then it crosses over to other manufacturers of a style of boat.

It becomes a mob mentality thing.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

People have different opinions and that is for sure but often they are based on reality. There is certainly evidence out there to suggest that many of the cheaper boats are not built as well as the older quality boats, I'm not sure why anyone would get too defensive about this as it doesn't mean that their cheaper boat can't sail the oceans if they choose. It might cost a lot of money to refit and older quality boat and it would make sense for some people to choose to buy a newer cheaper boat but many will not make that compromise for a variety of reasons. I hear about the speeds but really the cruising boats that are generally used by most cruisers are pretty slow to begin with. I have never met another cruiser that sails at 20 knots. Whether you average 6 knots or 7 knots to me is not a big deal although I'd rather be doing 7 knots, LOL. On our recent crossing we were similar in time to several Cats, I'm sure if they were sailed more aggressively that might not be the case but generally the Cat guys are quite careful and conservative when they are crossing oceans. Even more important is the 95% of the time you are living aboard at anchor and making use of that space and storage if it is not well laid out it does become a big deal because its your home. This is where the Cats really shine There are some very cool boats these days and some of them sail very quickly but the people we meet every day are still sailing boats that have changed little.

That was just what I was talking about It seems that it is not me that is defensive but you.... and talking about reality:

Old boat are old designs and inferior in what regards design and performance. Regarding the building quality and looking only at high quality old boats and new (or almost new) mass production boats you have to consider that we are talking about the reliability of a 30 year old boat versus the reliability of a new or almost new boat.

That is not different in what regards cars or airplanes. Compare a 30 year old high quality car with a new Korean cheap car and tell me what is more reliable. Yes you can waste a fortune putting an old boat as new but nobody does that, well very few, and I have seen the numbers, it cost not far from a new boat from the same brand...and the boat value is not much higher than it was before. You can just make it out of love but love is not rational.

Regarding speed, yes in what regards new mass production designs and 30 year old ones, type for type, the difference is huge, kind of several days on an Atlantic Crossing or hours on a day sailing. You can use ARC or ARC world results to confirm that.

The difference between averaging 6 and 7 hours is huge. In what regards 10 hours of sailing it is more than one hour and a half, the difference to arrive with time to have a swim and a dinner at sunset or arriving at night. Regarding an Atlantic passage we are talking about 3 days difference, that is about what you see on the ARC between those two types of boats. More three days at sea can be only boring but can also mean the difference between avoiding a gale or not.

I am talking about an Atlantic Crossing but out of the trade winds the difference between a new boat and an old one can be sailing or motoring. Most modern boats sail with 6K wind while old boats need normally at least 9/10K. Just 3 or 4k it seems not much but the ones that sail on regions with weak and variable wind know that it is an huge difference in what regards sailing time and motoring time.

Not bashing old boats. I had one really old. They can be an alternative for the ones that cannot afford newer boats. That money needed to bring it to a good condition is assuming a shipyard doing the job. If one does all the job it can take years but in the end he will have a boat that could not have afforded any other way and having a boat is the more important. Off course if he had the means to buy a new boat he would have passed all those years, that took him to recover the boat sailing, but that is another story.