Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

[Exile]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

That's not a caveat. It's factored in with the branding and marketing.

I'll give the coffee example. Coffee makers know that some people just WANT to pay a premium. So they provide a premium or more desireable product, but charge significantly more for that premium product that it should cost. This works. (see fair trade coffee -- costs 5 cents more, they charge a lot more than that.)

With products, there are some who want higher quality, but they are almost always willing to pay a higher than proportional cost to get it. People are willing to pay a premium for perceived higher quality, even if that cost is higher than it should be.

And people are also willing to pay a premium for actual higher quality, whether that also includes an additional premium for branding or not.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Indeed like premium cars that. Are priced to suit the market the same is true for many high end marquees , I mean you have to pay for those brochures , and the expensive exhibition stands !!

Dave

Making good buying decisions is always tough. The high end stuff is high quality but you sure pay a premium for sure whether its a T shirt or a new car/boat. I try to buy the best quality I can afford with most things but often I will buy cheap stuff if I don't plan on using it a lot. My Dad always said if you buy high quality you only cry once and I'd say for most stuff he was right but premium stuff while high quality is not very good value. Maybe some of the middle of the line production boats are the best choice for the long term buyer.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Exile

And people are also willing to pay a premium for actual higher quality, whether that also includes an additional premium for branding or not.

That's do different that what I said. People are willing to pay for higher quality, and producers generally charge them a premium for that quality, which they are also willing to pay.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

I meant A64 (not AVB). My bad. Simple mistake.

Even so, it certainly wasn't an "attack". I mean seriously - if merely challenging someone's opinion is an "attack" there is WAY too much tenderness around here.

If your intent is to advance an argument on the merits, quote in full & then highlight like you often do. Sometimes parsing is fine & saves bandwidth, but other times it distorts somebody else's post, whether you think their post worthy or not. I have no idea, btw, what A64 said at this point, or what part of it you're replying to, but thanks for clarifying it wasn't avb3.

Unless, of course, your intent is to provoke and/or something other than what you've stated. Peace.

[Exile]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile
And people are also willing to pay a premium for actual higher quality, whether that also includes an additional premium for branding or not.

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

That's do different that what I said. People are willing to pay for higher quality, and producers generally charge them a premium for that quality, which they are also willing to pay.

I got confused when you said "perceived" quality, although I would say when it comes to some consumer goods it's more about perception than reality. (e.g. Timex vs. Rolux). But I understand what you mean now.

The interesting inquiry for me when it comes to boats is mainly how & if the increased quality translates to how a boat performs at sea, esp. in rough conditions. Maybe the answer is that it provides more of a margin, makes it easier, and makes it more comfortable, but I could be wrong about that too.

[a64pilot]

If you pay 150K for a new boat and 150K for an older boat, assuming both were priced correctly, in three yrs it's likely the older boat will be valued at about 150K, and the new boat substantially less. Boats are a depreciating asset, plain and simple, and I chose not to be the one that takes the biggest chunk of that depreciation if I can help it.
This has nothing at all to do with the brand or quality of boat just simply if you buy a new one, it will most likely depreciate much faster than an older one


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Exile

The interesting inquiry for me when it comes to boats is mainly how & if the increased quality translates to how a boat performs at sea, esp. in rough conditions. Maybe the answer is that it provides more of a margin, makes it easier, and makes it more comfortable, but I could be wrong about that too.

I would think that performance would be the realm of hull, rig and sail design, and little to do with quality.

Mark

[Polux]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

That's do different that what I said. People are willing to pay for higher quality, and producers generally charge them a premium for that quality, which they are also willing to pay.

Yes off course, otherwise Mercedes and Audi as well as Halberg Rassy or Solaris would not sell cars or boats. But it seems we all agree that quality is not proportional to quality and in most cases it is not functionality but luxury meaning higher quality finish, better interior materials that some times don't have a correspondence in what regards superior specs. In fact in the cars normally they have, on the boats not always.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Kenomac
Ford Pinto cars only exploded and incinerated the occupants in rare cases, but I guess that didn't make the drivers and passengers of the 3,000,000 Pintos on the road feel any safer.

Originally Posted by MarkSF

Faced with a choice of a car that rarely exploded, and one that never exploded, I think most people would choose the latter.

Precisely... which is why we haven't seen any Pintos on the road in over 30 years.

Since Hunter and Bavaria are the boat brands which seem to fill the google search pages with links to keel and rudder issues, it stands to reason they would receive the most criticism on internet forums regarding safety concerns.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Making good buying decisions is always tough. The high end stuff is high quality but you sure pay a premium for sure whether its a T shirt or a new car/boat. I try to buy the best quality I can afford with most things but often I will buy cheap stuff if I don't plan on using it a lot. My Dad always said if you buy high quality you only cry once and I'd say for most stuff he was right but premium stuff while high quality is not very good value. Maybe some of the middle of the line production boats are the best choice for the long term buyer.

Honestly i think that in all different price categories if one know how to choose the highest price boat is always the best but there are not many with money to buy the best....so it all depends. if you have money to buy the middle price option and you know how to choose, its better than the lower price that in many cases it's the only option to many.

Regarding bluewater long range cruising the question that can be posed like this, and given pratical examples, if it is a better option to buy an Halberg Rassy 37 or a Jeanneau 45 and in what regards my opinion, if the budget don't allow more, the Jeanneau 45 is a better option.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Polux

Yes off course, otherwise Mercedes and Audi as well as Halberg Rassy or Solaris would not sell cars or boats. But it seems we all agree that quality is not proportional to quality and in most cases it is not functionality but luxury meaning higher quality finish, better interior materials that some times don't have a correspondence in what regards superior specs. In fact in the cars normally they have, on the boats not always.

Except that along with luxury on higher-end cars there can also be greater safety, long-distance comfort, durability, and less depreciation. This seems like this could also cross over to boats, but some of it is subjective, obviously.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Precisely... which is why we haven't seen any Pintos on the road in over 30 years.

I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that the last one rolled off the production line 35 years ago.

I mean, you see literally dozens of Barracudas, Gremlins and Pacers every single day - but no Pintos.

Mark

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Exile

Except that along with luxury on higher-end cars there can also be greater safety, long-distance comfort, durability, and less depreciation. This seems like this could also cross over to boats, but some of it is subjective, obviously.

Normally that is not true true in what regard depreciation. On high priced boats or high priced cars depreciation is bigger then on utilitarian cars or boats.

Regarding interior comfort sure, other types of comfort, it depends on the type. Durability and most of all reliability are not acquired. On boats there is no way of knowing but in what regards cars a main German auto magazine (with several associated magazines in Europe) runs an impressive statistic job to know what are the cars that require more assistance and also disassemble completely cars with 100 000kms or so to find out about wear and durability...and the results are impressive with Korean cars and other inexpensive cars ranking better then very expensive cars.

I suppose that if it was possible to do the same with cruising boats we would have identical results.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by colemj

I would think that performance would be the realm of hull, rig and sail design, and little to do with quality.

Mark

With the exception that many of the higher end boats are more heavily built, and therefore may be easier to handle, more comfortable, and have a greater margin for error in rough conditions. Not necessarily the same as quality, but these two attributes often go together.

I wonder if there are new, mass-produced, affordable boats now being made that are built more heavily. The Saga 43, for example, is more of a heavier, no-nonsense, purpose-built boat that doesn't seem loaded with luxuries. But it's expensive and doesn't fit the mass-produced category. The "Adventure 40" being developed & promoted by John Harries of Morgan's Cloud looks promising price-wise.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by colemj

I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that the last one rolled off the production line 35 years ago.

I mean, you see literally dozens of Barracudas, Gremlins and Pacers every single day - but no Pintos.

Mark

Mark you gotta be my age if you remember this stuff, LOL. God those were the days of crap cars personified.