Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

[Polux]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

In my experience the proportional increase in difference in prices between cheaper and more expensive boats is not necessarily reflected in the same proportional increase in quality.
..

I would say never reflects a proportional increase in quality and it is not only regarding boats but regarding everything. If you compare the performance of a Ford Focus with the same engine capacity with an Audi A4 you will see that the extra performance is not proportional neither with price neither the reliability. In what regard reliability it can even be smaller.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

My problem is I can't afford a Modern, well made boat. So in my price range I have two options and I think I'm not alone
1. An older well made boat that has depreciated to the point that I can afford it, or
2. A new boat, manufactured to a price point that I can afford.

But, yet again, the issue is a bit more complicated than what you present here...especially when talking about used boats. If your only equation is older "well-made" boat vs. new production boat...you're missing out on a whole lot.

I had a similar conversation with Exile (I think) a while back - so let's use his boat as an example, the Bristol 47.7 - which obviously has a great reputation as a well-made boat. No doubt it's a blue water beauty.

Here is a 29 year old 47.7 currently on the market for $150K:

1986 Bristol 47.7 Center Cockpit Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com



So if we set the bar at 45-50 feet and $150K you get quite a few pretty new production boats that don't suck:

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...ll_modelYear|1



2013 Bavaria
2011 Beneteaus (Oceanis and First)
2011 Bavarias
2010 Jeanneaus
2010 Dufours, Salonas

And on and on.

Now granted, the Hunters hold their value so well that you don't start seeing those until you get to the 2005 range...but still.

Are you really not seeing any well-built, 3-5 year old modern boats in this list that compare to a 29 year old Bristol? And is what you're getting in that Bristol really worth what you're paying in comparison to these newer boats?

Hell, for this $150K price range and if you're willing to go a bit older, you can even find lots of very nice multi-hulls in the 38' range and have WAY more space than any of these monohulls.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...dedSelected=-1

Finally, if you're willing to go back just a couple more years on the monohuls, they do become much less expensive due to that depreciation - and you can get a very, very good deal from a price perspective. This leaves tens-of-thousands more in your kitty...which to most people is a very good thing.

So - without having to bash anything...if price is really a consideration, you could hardly go wrong with a much newer well-made production boat over a much older well-made blue water boat that hasn't depreciated that much really - or needs a good deal of work to bring it up to anywhere near the condition of the newer boat if it is significantly cheaper.

Beyond that, there are many other considerations that go into boat choice that vastly complicate the picture (how long you'll keep it, what you expect in terms of depreciation, what specific features you want, what you think is pretty, etc.)

Again, I have absolutely no problem with a person deciding to pay whatever they want for whatever boat they want. But if you want to start laying out general rules of logic for comparison, you have to start getting very, very specific as to why newer, used modern production boats don't make sense over 25+ year old blue water boats. Because, actually, you can afford a modern, well-made boat. The fact may be that you just don't want one.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Polux

I would say never reflects a proportional increase in quality and it is not only regarding boats but regarding everything. If you compare the performance of a Ford Focus with the same engine capacity with an Audi A4 you will see that the extra performance is not proportional neither with price neither the reliability. In what regard reliability it can even be smaller.

Indeed like premium cars that. Are priced to suit the market the same is true for many high end marquees , I mean you have to pay for those brochures , and the expensive exhibition stands !!

Dave

[Exile]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

In my experience the proportional increase in difference in prices between cheaper and more expensive boats is not necessarily reflected in the same proportional increase in quality.

Futhermore of course you can get older boats that fit into a certain budget. But equally you are possibly buying tired systems , mast, rigging , engine etc. an awful amount of money then needs to be spent especially if you envisage the boat being used hard.

Dave

Yes, I agree that price & quality are definitely not proportional when it comes to modern production boats. ColemJ made that point well on one of these threads by discussing modern assembly-line mfg. techniques as well as certain economies of scale that the high-end mfgs. don't have access to and aren't feasible given their low production volumes. I'm sure, for e.g., this explains why IP & maybe others are now going with hull liners, for better or worse. But there are still quality differences, and some of it is obviously with interiors, etc. that many buyers could care less about. But even some of the proponents talk about higher margins for error & increased security & comfort in heavier weather, for example. Again, the issue is not whether you can sail these boats anywhere, but rather whether you want to given all the other options.

I'm also just trying to look at higher & lower end boats built for similar purposes, btw, not the ones purposely built for more coastal or inland sailing. And also not the so-called "Expedition" boats designed for high-latitude sailing -- that's a different animal altogether.

Also agree with you about the additional costs that occasion the alternative of buying an older boat with tired systems. But assuming fully informed & realistic buyers & sellers, I think the market compensates for much of this in its pricing. In my case, for example, the boat was kept up well by the PO, and my refitting was limited to 3-4 systems and even that was based more on preference than necessity. At this point, I probably have the same amount of money into the boat as it would cost to buy a new mass-production boat fitted with premium components, and it's probably $10,000 in redundant equip. & safety gear away from being able to sail anywhere in the world. I'm not advocating anyone making my choice or buying a new production boat (personal choice), just saying that there's still a lot to be said for buying an older boat in today's used market.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Indeed like premium cars that. Are priced to suit the market the same is true for many high end marquees , I mean you have to pay for those brochures , and the expensive exhibition stands !!

Dave

Kinda like watches- an inexpensive Timex or Sieko costs a lot less than a Tag Huer or a Rolex (and we're not even beginning to talk about Patek Phillipe).

But they all tell time and reasonably well

[Exile]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Kinda like watches- an inexpensive Timex or Sieko costs a lot less than a Tag Huer or a Rolex (and we're not even beginning to talk about Patek Phillipe).

But they all tell time and reasonably well

Actually, I've always heard that a Timex keeps better time than a Rolex!

But I also don't think it's quite that simple when comparing similarly purposed boats.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Exile

Actually, I've always heard that a Timex keeps better time than a Rolex!

But I also don't think it's quite that simple when comparing similarly purposed boats.

Actually most any watch keeps better time than a Rolex ( I have one, (sigh) , a gift - I would never have paid that much money for it myself)

I agree that boats are a more complicated matter. Here in Denmark we have a boat builder called Faurby who builds beautiful boats, they are handcrafted and the workmanship is exquisite.

I can't afford one and to be honest even if I could I wouldn't. they cost 50% more than a comparable mass produciton boat and aside from the workmanship - I don't believe they are a better boat. (my opinion, I have nothing concrete to base that satement one)

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Polux

How the well do you want to bolt directly trough the hull a keel on a Beneteau (or jeanneau) if they use an integral "Structure de coque contremoulée"?



Regarding Bavaria, that design is from one and you can see clearly that the keel bolts go trough the hull and after that trough the hull grid structure and after that they have large backing plates.

Very simple, first of all get rid off this thin hollow grid liner around the keel structure, glass proper stringers and beams to the hull , wide enough to spread the loads even in a hard grounding, solid laminate under keel bolts should be at least 4x or 5x the thicknes of the hull layup , bolts should have proper backing plates , wide enough to spread the loads again, FWD and AFT keel bolts can be bolted to a strong stringer or beam , keels need to survive to the remote scenario of a broken bolt ..

Saying that,,, Rig loads are easy to calculate, keel loads nop... A bit of overbuild enginering in this particular área dont hurt perfomance , weight or your pocket...


Or they can bit the bullet and made something similar to Salona, why not...

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

In my experience the proportional increase in difference in prices between cheaper and more expensive boats is not necessarily reflected in the same proportional increase in quality.

This is generally NOT the case.

Usually the higher priced is the better quality, but a premium is paid for that - it's not proportional.

Rolex vs Timex
Porsche vs anything
Iphone vs Galaxy
Island Packet vs (whatever the competition is)

Part of what people are paying for is branding, and pay they do. In the case of the iphone vs Galaxy, the consumer is paying more for an inferior product, but Apple has customer perception and loyalty backing them.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

But, yet again, the issue is a bit more complicated than what you present here...especially when talking about used boats. If your only equation is older "well-made" boat vs. new production boat...you're missing out on a whole lot.

I had a similar conversation with Exile (I think) a while back - so let's use his boat as an example, the Bristol 47.7 - which obviously has a great reputation as a well-made boat. No doubt it's a blue water beauty.

Here is a 29 year old 47.7 currently on the market for $150K:

1986 Bristol 47.7 Center Cockpit Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com



So if we set the bar at 45-50 feet and $150K you get quite a few pretty new production boats that don't suck:

2000 (Sail) Boats For Sale



2013 Bavaria
2011 Beneteaus (Oceanis and First)
2011 Bavarias
2010 Jeanneaus
2010 Dufours, Salonas

And on and on.

Now granted, the Hunters hold their value so well that you don't start seeing those until you get to the 2005 range...but still.

Are you really not seeing any well-built, 3-5 year old modern boats in this list that compare to a 29 year old Bristol? And is what you're getting in that Bristol really worth what you're paying in comparison to these newer boats?

Hell, for this $150K price range and if you're willing to go a bit older, you can even find lots of very nice multi-hulls in the 38' range and have WAY more space than any of these monohulls.

1995 (Sail) Catamaran Boats For Sale

Finally, if you're willing to go back just a couple more years on the monohuls, they do become much less expensive due to that depreciation - and you can get a very, very good deal from a price perspective. This leaves tens-of-thousands more in your kitty...which to most people is a very good thing.

So - without having to bash anything...if price is really a consideration, you could hardly go wrong with a much newer well-made production boat over a much older well-made blue water boat that hasn't depreciated that much really - or needs a good deal of work to bring it up to anywhere near the condition of the newer boat if it is significantly cheaper.

Beyond that, there are many other considerations that go into boat choice that vastly complicate the picture (how long you'll keep it, what you expect in terms of depreciation, what specific features you want, what you think is pretty, etc.)

Again, I have absolutely no problem with a person deciding to pay whatever they want for whatever boat they want. But if you want to start laying out general rules of logic for comparison, you have to start getting very, very specific as to why newer, used modern production boats don't make sense over 25+ year old blue water boats. Because, actually, you can afford a modern, well-made boat. The fact may be that you just don't want one.

Can't find fault with any of this, Smack. But it only states the simple & obvious. Of course I don't want a modern production boat & probably never will, but that's obvious from the choice I made and am very happy with. (But I do feel a bit better about modern production boat capabilities!). And of course the modern boats -- new & used -- are very compelling price-wise if that's what you and many, many others are looking for.

A simple market analysis will tell you that the median selling price of a Bristol 47.7 is around $200-250k, depending on condtion obviously and whether it was mfg. before or after 1990. So assuming knowledgeable buyers & sellers (required for any market to work properly), the $150K asking price on the one you posted reflects a below average condition requiring additional costs to bring it up to the level of one priced closer to the average. It just depends on whether you want to put your money (or sweat) in now or later. Sure, there are always deals to be had, esp. in this post-recession market, but in general you are going to get what you pay for. With such a glut of supply, any boat not realistically priced won't sell, and realistically priced on a used boat has to reflect its condition and additional buyer costs to refit it. Fwiw, there is (or was) another 47.7 up for sale in Mexico for $350K. I suspect it's post-1990 and in stellar condition, but I also suspect the asking price reflects pre-2007/recession values and it's not likely to sell at that price regardless of condition.

So this analysis really isn't for guys like you who love (for good reason) the modern boats, or guys like me who love (for good reason) more traditional boats, but rather for those who are not so fixed in their respective positions shopping for a boat they can afford, and one that meets their needs and their wants. You are certainly correct that an actual buyer has to get much more specific as their individual criteria & preferences dictate, but there's obviously no way to comprehensively analyze that on a forum. My only point is that, since 2007-08, there has been an extraordinary & probably unprecedented used boat buyer's market in the US & probably elsewhere, and more people than ever can now afford -- again, if this is their thing -- extremely capable & high quality bluewater boats from mfgs. with stellar reps. It just comes down to whether what the purchase price + refit costs are, but it applies at any level, from a used Hinckley on down. No need to get more specific in understanding this basic reality, until you're actually in the market and have your parameters established.

Ditto for older mass-produced boats, except apples-to-apples they're even more affordable. The only difference might be that you guys might also have to drop your keels, rudders, & inspect/replace your seacocks (except on Hunters, of course).

[Exile]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

This is generally NOT the case.

Usually the higher priced is the better quality, but a premium is paid for that - it's not proportional.

Rolex vs Timex
Porsche vs anything
Iphone vs Galaxy
Island Packet vs (whatever the competition is)

Part of what people are paying for is branding, and pay they do. In the case of the iphone vs Galaxy, the consumer is paying more for an inferior product, but Apple has customer perception and loyalty backing them.

With the caveat that some people could care less about the branding but want the quality, and today's used boat market affords those people the opportunity to pay for the latter but discount the former.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Exile

You are certainly correct that an actual buyer has to get much more specific as their individual criteria & preferences dictate, but there's obviously no way to comprehensively analyze that on a forum.

Exactly. That's why I challenge generalities on forums - like AVB's. Prospective boat buyers need better info than that.

[Exile]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile
You are certainly correct that an actual buyer has to get much more specific as their individual criteria & preferences dictate, but there's obviously no way to comprehensively analyze that on a forum.

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Exactly. That's why I challenge generalities on forums - like AVB's. Prospective boat buyers need better info than that.

Way to parse out yet another post from someone who challenges your monolithic & simple-minded positions, Smack, and attack another member who isn't even part of the current discourse for good measure.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Robert

To my knowledge no. But the Dehler keels and Bavaria keels and the benejenniehansa keel fastenings are almost identical. There really aren't any secrets inthe production boat trade.


I agree with Dave. Yes a couple of keels have been lost due to design errors, but that was years ago - time and keel design have moved on.

Other keels (not many) have been lost due to hard groundings without proper inspection and maintenance afterwards (I simply cannot see how the manufacturer can be faulted for this).

Keels are not really an issue, unless someone wants to make one and then they are just beating a very dead horse

Well maybe I am beating a dead horse but the well respected British Yachting Magazine just put out an article that suggests otherwise. Who am I to argue with Yachting Mag? Good to hear Dehler has a clean record, they have lots of company as only a few production builders have built boats that have lost their keels.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Exile

With the caveat that some people could care less about the branding but want the quality, and today's used boat market affords those people the opportunity to pay for the latter but discount the former.

That's not a caveat. It's factored in with the branding and marketing.

I'll give the coffee example. Coffee makers know that some people just WANT to pay a premium. So they provide a premium or more desireable product, but charge significantly more for that premium product that it should cost. This works. (see fair trade coffee -- costs 5 cents more, they charge a lot more than that.)

With products, there are some who want higher quality, but they are almost always willing to pay a higher than proportional cost to get it. People are willing to pay a premium for perceived higher quality, even if that cost is higher than it should be.