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21-06-2008, 05:02
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 685
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B & R rig, on a Hunter?
The B&R Mast
Without backstay. The link is a good ad for B&R rig without backstay, but does it work in storm and reality, if you want to cross the atlantic? Offcause it works, but it feels little unsafe without backstay. And downwind is little more difficult. I have no experience of it at all.
Any more comments about it?
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21-06-2008, 05:55
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#2
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Senior Cruiser

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 51,858
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Here’s what the inventors (Bergstrom & Ridder) of the B&G rig have to say:
United States Patent # 3866558 (Filed September 5, 1973)
Inventors: Bergstrom; Lars Rune (Varmdo, SW), Ridder; Georg Sven Olof (Lidingo, SW)
Goto:
United States Patent: 3866558
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"
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21-06-2008, 09:31
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 685
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Thanks,
What yacht brand use this kind of mast/rig except hunter?
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22-06-2008, 21:38
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Napa, CA
Boat: Shopping for catamaran
Posts: 76
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Just about every Catamaran built uses some sort of variant on the B&R rig, were the loads can be twice to three time foot per foot compared to a mono haul.
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22-06-2008, 22:58
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#5
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Guest
Posts: n/a
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Don't worry about strength, they are plenty strong enough.
They can be a real bear to tune properly, and you already know about the downwind issues. They do let the boat carry a full-battened sail with a large roach, a much more efficient design for upwind work. Like anything to do with boatrs, you pick your poison.
The stupidest rig I have ever sailed was a Hunter 44 with (of course) a B&R rig, but an in-mast roller furling system that prevented the use of any roach at all. The worst of ALL worlds.
Worry more about the whole package meeting your transatlantic needs, not just the rig.
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23-06-2008, 13:27
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 685
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatKetch
Worry more about the whole package meeting your transatlantic needs, not just the rig.
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Thanks, just wondering what people had to say about it. Yes, i know, i have 1000 questions left before a atlantic cross.
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18-04-2016, 05:14
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Miami
Boat: 2012 Tartan 47
Posts: 250
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Re: B & R rig, on a Hunter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatKetch
Don't worry about strength, they are plenty strong enough.
They can be a real bear to tune properly, and you already know about the downwind issues. They do let the boat carry a full-battened sail with a large roach, a much more efficient design for upwind work. Like anything to do with boatrs, you pick your poison.
The stupidest rig I have ever sailed was a Hunter 44 with (of course) a B&R rig, but an in-mast roller furling system that prevented the use of any roach at all. The worst of ALL worlds.
Worry more about the whole package meeting your transatlantic needs, not just the rig.
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The Selden in-mast furling system on a Hunter 44 allows full vertical battens with a large roach.
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18-04-2016, 06:21
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#8
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Sxm , Spain
Boat: CSY 44 Tall rig Sold!
Posts: 4,367
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Re: B & R rig, on a Hunter?
They are a pain in the ass to tune nice, the sweep back spreaders work like a backstay , no real downwind at all, more like a zip and zip course, the uppers put a lot of strain in the plates , dificult to get a proper forestay tension, they have some prebend in the spar and this is not inmast furler friendly,,,, like others say, Hunter is the only one using and Pňgo,,, maybe others not sure,,, not my favorite kind of rig and i hate it when we have some one waiting in the rigging shop...
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18-04-2016, 11:42
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#9
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: May 2012
Location: New Orleans
Boat: We have a problem... A serious addiction issue.
Posts: 3,974
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Re: B & R rig, on a Hunter?
Other than trying to sail wing and wing they are fine.
But I am going to have to disagree with Neil, Pogo does not use a BnR, they use a very traditional multihull rig. The difference is that the BnR uses a thin wall section with lots of jumpers and intermediates while a multihull rig uses a heavy mast section, cap shrouds, and normally just one intermediate. Though both use swept back spreaders.
__________________
Greg
- If animals weren't meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be made of food.
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18-04-2016, 14:52
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#10
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Norwalk, CT USA
Boat: Judel/Vrolijk 33
Posts: 102
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Re: B & R rig, on a Hunter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandywine
Just about every Catamaran built uses some sort of variant on the B&R rig, were the loads can be twice to three time foot per foot compared to a mono haul.
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The spars on multihulls that rotate aren't really B&R and generally incorporate 'diamonds'. The shrouds leading from the 'hounds' to outer chainplates are independent.
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18-04-2016, 16:01
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#11
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CLOD
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: being planted in Jacksonville Fl
Boat: none
Posts: 20,832
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Re: B & R rig, on a Hunter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by freetime
Thanks, just wondering what people had to say about it. Yes, i know, i have 1000 questions left before a atlantic cross.
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I've sailed with a B&R rig the past 5 years. It sails just fine! And yes you can wing-on-wing it, but it is a tight sail point and hard to hold except in calm conditions and I only do it in a tight seaway.
__________________
Don't ask a bunch of unknown forum people if it is OK to do something on YOUR boat. It is your boat, do what you want!
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18-04-2016, 16:33
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#12
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Lake Erie
Boat: H36
Posts: 384
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Re: B & R rig, on a Hunter?
I have helped friends take down their masts down. Mast head rig sticks seem to weigh twice as much as a B&R. Does this not effect righting moment?
Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
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19-04-2016, 01:28
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#13
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Cape Tpwn
Posts: 29
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Re: B & R rig, on a Hunter?
Does this type of rigging completely prevent from shaping mast and forestay on the fly?
Best,
Jack.
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19-04-2016, 10:41
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#14
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: May 2012
Location: New Orleans
Boat: We have a problem... A serious addiction issue.
Posts: 3,974
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Re: B & R rig, on a Hunter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailor Doug
I have helped friends take down their masts down. Mast head rig sticks seem to weigh twice as much as a B&R. Does this not effect righting moment?
Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
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Doug,
It's a tradeoff. You can build a very very light rig if you use lots of spreaders and intermediate stays. But the rigging itself adds weight, and adds windage. Or you can use an unstayed rig at the expense of weight and mast size. From an engineering standpoint they are both possible.
The magic of a rig design is to balance these factors to end up with a rig that works in harmony with the rest of the boat. As well as takes into account the amount of money you are willing to throw at the problem.
Just as an example... A full on race boat may use a smaller mast but instead of using wire shrouds will replace them with extruded unidirection airfoil carbon shrouds which have minimal drag and weight but may wind up costing as much as the stick itself. But they are small, light, and strong, so you can use more of them to build a smaller mast.
And RM isn't everything. For slower boats it pretty much is, but as speeds increase aero drag makes up a larger and larger proportion of the total drag. Controlling this drag has become a source of substantial gains on fast boats.
__________________
Greg
- If animals weren't meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be made of food.
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19-04-2016, 13:18
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#15
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cruiser
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 299
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Re: B & R rig, on a Hunter?
If you will entertain the opinion of an old dinghy sailor...
The B&R rig is, was, and forever will be a piece of crap. It was originally developed under the heavy competitive pressure of the IOR period. Its claim to fame was increased upwind boatspeed due to a smaller mast section and in this, I think, it delivered some small, but real, benefit. This was an era of ever-smaller mast sections on offshore boats, held up by increasingly complex rigging and hydraulics, and the skill of their crews. Total loss of rig offshore, once almost unheard of, was becoming commonplace. (One sparbuilder was heard to murmur, "Lord, how I love that repeat business.")
Even under competitive pressure the B&R rig never really caught on. The swept-back spreaders bit into the main. The lack of backstays was a lubberly set-up for offshore work. And the small section, its raison d'ętre, was disconcerting.
But then an odd thing began occurring. While disappearing on racing boats, builders of "cruising" boats and recreational sailboats, especially bottom-market brands such as Hunter, began to put the rig on their offerings. Cynically promoted as benefitting performance, the real reason was, of course, cost reduction. Apparently, some wire and a few more spreaders were cheaper for the builder to buy than a properly-sized spar section.
It won't surprise you to learn I would never consider a B&R rig on any craft, no matter the vessel's intended purpose. Now will come the avalanche of indignant and angry respones, "I have a catamaran with...!" "I have sailed for eight years with...!" Please, save it. An opinion was sought and given; nothing you say will change my mind in the slightest.
Paul
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