Another Hunter Rudder!

[zeehag]

when i sail a spade rudder equipped boat, a sis my ericson 35mII, i make sure i wait incoming tide and sail off.is less damaging to equipment.
with formosa--only problem i found with grounding is the shallowness of the water.....was 6 inches deeper last season in the same place---shoaling happens--we need to watch our depth sounders a little better to avoid the shoals.

there is a hunter 26 in the mangroves--but his depth is only 2 1/2 ft with board and rudder up.....we call this hunter a dinghy.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Heck any spade rudder in rocks is at risk of break off no matter if is a hunter or a swan.... more prone this silly designs with the rudder deeper than the keel...

That's the way my little Irwin was. The "keel" was only longer when the centerboard was down. The centerboard didn't work when I bought it as a complete newbie, and i was advised with great confidence that I didn't "need" a centerboard.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by zeehag

when i sail a spade rudder equipped boat, a sis my ericson 35mII, i make sure i wait incoming tide and sail off.is less damaging to equipment.
with formosa--only problem i found with grounding is the shallowness of the water.....was 6 inches deeper last season in the same place---shoaling happens--we need to watch our depth sounders a little better to avoid the shoals.

there is a hunter 26 in the mangroves--but his depth is only 2 1/2 ft with board and rudder up.....we call this hunter a dinghy.

I don't have that much faith in depth sounders. I have one, and I pay attention to it, but if the water suddenly gets shallow, but the time the depth sounder tells you, you're already plowing a furrow.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

I think the rudder may have been designed to "take one for the gipper" as they say. Better the rudder than the hull.

A friend of ours lost the bottom off their skeg-hung rudder on their Valiant 40 in the Haapai group in Tonga many years back. When they got stuck into repairing it, Valiant informed them that it was designed that way on purpose, to be sacrificial in case of a grounding. FWIW

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

That's the way my little Irwin was. The "keel" was only longer when the centerboard was down. The centerboard didn't work when I bought it as a complete newbie, and i was advised with great confidence that I didn't "need" a centerboard.

Wow, thats easy, get a jacksaw and cut the rudder at the bottom....

Now seriously, no idea how is made the rudder stock in a hunter, but hopefully is solid and not hollow filled with some lame stuff inside..

Good construction fashion call for solid rudder stock, unless is a hig tech Carbon fiber or some kind of exotic rudder..

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

A friend of ours lost the bottom off their skeg-hung rudder on their Valiant 40 in the Haapai group in Tonga many years back. When they got stuck into repairing it, Valiant informed them that it was designed that way on purpose, to be sacrificial in case of a grounding. FWIW

See, I'm not even surprised to hear that because my boat hit the river bottom really, really hard.

So the real question in my mind is still "Why Hunters -- and not Catalinas" -- since there are so many Catalinas here.

Maybe a Hunter's rudder length is closer to the keel length than it is on a Catalina. One of the people I know who lost a rudder on a Hunter modified the design of his rudder so it could be shorter and still do the job. His boat is extremely similar to mine, and very fast, points well, etc., so he can't have done too bad of a job.

He also straightened the shaft with a come-along rather than replacing it. Since my bent rudder was brand new I decided against that. I saw no point (esp. given my history!) of sailing on a practically brand-new rudder that was already compromised. 30º is a lot of bend to correct in stainless steel.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

I am having a tough time grasping how this has anything at all to do with Hunter's....?

Heck a big 70' Hylas just hit a ledge here in Maine and lost her entire spar. Does that make the Hylas less of a boat. Hit bottom and lots of things can happen even to very, very well built boats.

There was a Hunter here in Maine that hit TREMENDOUSLY hard and took a football sized dent out of the keel lead. The boat survived just fine, did not sink, did not take on any water and when the keel was dropped there was nearly 1.5" of sold fiberglass in the keel stub. This was a much thicker layup than I would have imagined for a 34' Hunter... The rudder was scratched up but otherwise fine.

How would other brands survive this.....?? This is one of the hardest hits I have seen. Solid granite at full bore..... The Hunter survived to sail another day...


Heck the last Island Packet I saw that hit bottom lost an entire season because the encapsulated keel was still draining water out of the encapsulation/cement for two+ months....... Does that make it bad boat..?

Wow, that's an impressive chunk missing from the keel. I've never seen a lead keel have a piece actually broken out like that, for usually the lead is malleable enough that it distorts rather than breaking. I know that keel manufacturers often add antimony to the lead to make it a bit harder, perhaps to make the keel bolt attachment more secure. This addition reduces ductility, of course... so I wonder if the Hunter keels have unusual amounts of antimony added? Do you (or anyone else) have any info on this?

And on the Hunter rudder issue: when folks talk about "loosing" or "breaking" the rudders, are the rudder stocks breaking, or is it a case of the foam/glass blade breaking off of the stock, or the structure within the hull failing?

Cheers,

Jim

[boatsail]

Car runs into brick curb striking right front wheel, wheel breaks, must be cheap wheel because it broke.....

***NO****

wheels are not meant to run into brick curb.

To say the wheel has issue because it broke when doing somehting other than sitting driving is ridiculous!

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Wow, that's an impressive chunk missing from the keel. I've never seen a lead keel have a piece actually broken out like that, for usually the lead is malleable enough that it distorts rather than breaking. I know that keel manufacturers often add antimony to the lead to make it a bit harder, perhaps to make the keel bolt attachment more secure. This addition reduces ductility, of course... so I wonder if the Hunter keels have unusual amounts of antimony added? Do you (or anyone else) have any info on this?

And on the Hunter rudder issue: when folks talk about "loosing" or "breaking" the rudders, are the rudder stocks breaking, or is it a case of the foam/glass blade breaking off of the stock, or the structure within the hull failing?

Cheers,

Jim

Jim, in every case I know of, it was the stainless steel shaft that gave, not the blade of the rudder. In one case the blade broke off, but it broke off because of a bad weld in the stainless steel above the blade.

Not sure what the loss consisted on Jopi Helsen's boat. When my first one broke, it was rusted badly just above the blade. The shaft did not break completely, but the rudder now moved through the water vertically -- 90º off -- instead of horizontally.

In the second case it was the steel that gave, not the blade. A friend of mine even went over the blade with a moisture reader and didn't find a single spot where water had intruded. The blade was still solid.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by boatsail

Car runs into brick curb striking right front wheel, wheel breaks, must be cheap wheel because it broke.....

***NO****

wheels are not meant to run into brick curb.

To say the wheel has issue because it broke when doing somehting other than sitting driving is ridiculous!

No one said the rudder has an "issue." I asked a question. I did not make a statement.

[zeehag]

my formosa had only one depth sounder when i bought her--in the cockpit with the transducer under the quadrant. i deemed that unacceptable fro proper depth sounding and added another forward--exactly where my keel is cutaway so i can see how deep it is BEFORE i plow. lol with a 2 ft only variance in tide i need to know before i am in 4 ft of water. funny how this little addition makes all the difference..ol i am also able to see accurately the depth should i decide to med tie.

sailing gom in a siedelmann 37 sloop was enlightening as we did a hard grounding in a surfline condition and broke the foam rudder and tangs off the rudder post in the pounding the boat took--we also popped skin over rudder.....therefore the boat is a bad boat, i presume, as it didnt handle the trying to kill it actions of the skipper-owner.rodlmao...i call this a shipwreck,and we made it 300 miles to slidell with a floppy rudder---that was a challenge---oh i lied--was 290 miles...lol
the rudder of the seidelmann was also longer than the 4 1/2 ft keel. spade rudder. funny thing how spade rudders are built --foam on small tangs keeping it to a post--lol what a folly....and no protection from destructive forces. and seidelmann rudder was not a fold up kind as is the hunter 26 and mac 26 and some others

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by zeehag

my formosa had only one depth sounder when i bought her--in the cockpit with the transducer under the quadrant. i deemed that unacceptable fro proper depth sounding and added another forward--exactly where my keel is cutaway so i can see how deep it is BEFORE i plow. lol with a 2 ft only variance in tide i need to know before i am in 4 ft of water. funny how this little addition makes all the difference..ol i am also able to see accurately the depth should i decide to med tie.

sailing gom in a siedelmann 37 sloop was enlightening as we did a hard grounding in a surfline condition and broke the foam rudder and tangs off the rudder post in the pounding the boat took--we also popped skin over rudder.....therefore the boat is a bad boat, i presume, as it didnt handle the trying to kill it actions of the skipper-owner.rodlmao...i call this a shipwreck,and we made it 300 miles to slidell with a floppy rudder---that was a challenge---oh i lied--was 290 miles...lol
the rudder of the seidelmann was also longer than the 4 1/2 ft keel. spade rudder. funny thing how spade rudders are built --foam on small tangs keeping it to a post--lol what a folly....and no protection from destructive forces. and seidelmann rudder was not a fold up kind as is the hunter 26 and mac 26 and some others

It seems that the blade of the Hunter is very securely attached to the post, as in 5 of the 6 instances I now know of, it was the post that failed. I don't know what the exact nature of the problem was with the racing boat.

The example of the Seidelman rudder being longer than the keel has me thinking, because a Catalina 30' doesn't sail as fast as mine, nor point as well. It may be that their rudder is shorter in relation to the keel than the Hunter's is.

Hunters were designed to be raceable. I don't think Catalinas were.

[neilpride]

Jim i guess the rudder stock just snap when people describe loosing a rudder.
There is no other way, normally rudders are secured at the top by pins , quadrant...
Boats docked at marinas for long time are at more risk if the marinas got faulty dock wiring, more prone for this boats with the rudder top half in the water half in the air...

There is a l440 here in the marina , he come 3 days ago with the rudders destroyed, but able to steer and dock the boat in the marina.. and 3 years ago we rebuild the rudders in a Nautitech, we make the molds and made the top rudder stronger and the bottom sacrificial, in case of a collision the bottom just snap leaving the top intact to steer...

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Jim i guess the rudder stock just snap when people describe loosing a rudder.
There is no other way, normally rudders are secured at the top by pins , quadrant...
Boats docked at marinas for long time are at more risk if the marinas got faulty dock wiring, more prone for this boats with the rudder top half in the water half in the air...

There is a l440 here in the marina , he come 3 days ago with the rudders destroyed, but able to steer and dock the boat in the marina.. and 3 years ago we rebuild the rudders in a Nautitech, we make the molds and made the top rudder stronger and the bottom sacrificial, in case of a collision the bottom just snap leaving the top intact to steer...

If your rudder stock snaps, you do lose your rudder.

In my second incident, it was the rudder that hit bottom and bent the rudder shaft. I think it's completely reasonable call these things rudder incidents.

[zeehag]

shorter the rudder more the weather helm problems... coronado had short rudders, and much weather helm.
catalina 30 s were initially considered catalina cruisers--weekends or weeks at a time at catalina island, made in costa mesa, kali for the purpose of sailing these waters. they can, according to folks actually cruising them, be used to cruise coastal waters of west coast and to hawaii.
but, then, some folks actually sail macgregors in the san pedro and santa barbara channels between catalina and mainland kali. some even sail hunter 26s.....

our problem here isnt short or skinny water--it is rocky lee shore and winds of probably inadequate amounts, but with goodly gusts.