And Now for Something Completely Different - Helmsmen 49

[Katapult Mike]

Came across a boat on Yachtworld that is pretty interesting. Hard to get reliable stats on it. It's called a Helmsmen 49.

Sailboatdata.com: https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/helmsman-49/

Yachtworld: https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/198...ocean-8030117/

It's a small boat for its length, with a beam of only 11.7 feet and a Disp/Length of 110.95. Displacement only 24,190 pounds. BUT ballast of 11,424 pounds, for a ratio of 47%.

The narrow beam makes me think it would be tender, but the ballast ratio says otherwise. How do you think this boat would perform downwind in a following sea?

So hypothetical use case: retired couple, cruising the Mediterranean a few months a year. Maybe pop down to Canaries. Maybe even cross Atlantic for a season in the Carribean. I have sailed quite a bit including two Atlantic crossings long ago, my wife, not much experience. Full disclosure: this is just armchair day-dreaming, I am not on the brink of a purchase.

I can't find any info on the sail area, but with the ketch rig the sails look pretty manageable. The cozy little pilot house looks like just the thing when the waether is messy. And provided sail area is adequate, it should be a fast boat.

Any opinions on suitability of the boat for stated purpose, and on the boat in general, welcome. I've never seen anything like it.

[Kello]

Fin keel + spade rudder = bay boat. If you want sail offshore look for an encapsulated keel and protected rudder. Just my professional opinion, many will argue with me. Good luck.

[Katapult Mike]

Originally Posted by Kello

Fin keel + spade rudder = bay boat. If you want sail offshore look for an encapsulated keel and protected rudder. Just my professional opinion, many will argue with me. Good luck.

FWIW, Sailboatdata.com says it has a skeg rudder rather than spade.

Info on this boat is kind of sketchy - Sailboatdata.com also says the rig is a fractional sloop, whcih is clearly not what is in the picture.

Persoanlly, I am quite comfortable going offshore with fin and skeg.

[donradcliffe]

Fin Keel + spade rudder = offshore boat. Lots of waterline for making way. Lots of storage. Pilot house is great for eating and driving, but the towel over the top may mean that it leaks a bit. Owner's berth in bow means you will need to sleep further back on passages. Lots of teak and brightwork to maintain, but someone has kept it up. Low hours on replacement engine.

Lots of unanswered questions about sail area, tankage, but the price is right.

Just my professional opinion after 150,000 offshore miles.

[Kettlewell]

Looks interesting! I was never looking for a pilothouse, but now that I have owned one for about 18 years I would have a hard time not having one. Reasonable draft for its length. It's really a shorter boat with a very long transom deck/scoop. Of course you will have to pay for that length everywhere, but it should help with offshore comfort and speed.

[Jimbo2010]

100K for very dated design, transom kinda unusual, not something I would buy, moreover resale can;t be strong

[Katapult Mike]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

It's really a shorter boat with a very long transom deck/scoop. Of course you will have to pay for that length everywhere, but it should help with offshore comfort and speed.

Yeah, I think that is the right way to look at it. The added length increases waterline length and theoretical hull speed. It will cost you more in marinas. But you don't have all the other increased loads and costs that you get as you size up.

The enormous sugar scoop transom gives me a bit of pause. Seems like it could momentarily catch a lot of water in a following sea. But sure would make great swim platform / boarding from dinghy platform.

I also love the split bow pulpit. Makes it easy to go bow to instead of stern to in the Med, preserving some privacy.

How do you guys think this boat woudl perform running in the trade winds? Is it going to roll like crazy?

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by Katapult Mike

It's a small boat for its length, with a beam of only 11.7 feet and a Disp/Length of 110.95. Displacement only 24,190 pounds. BUT ballast of 11,424 pounds, for a ratio of 47%.
The narrow beam makes me think it would be tender, but the ballast ratio says otherwise. How do you think this boat would perform downwind in a following sea?
I can't find any info on the sail area,

Originally Posted by Katapult Mike

How do you guys think this boat woudl perform running in the trade winds? Is it going to roll like crazy?

With a D/L of ~110 she's definitely a really light boat.
Narrow beam, tender, ballast ratio ~47%?
Initial stability>smaller angles of heel primarily come from form stability/hull shape.
She'll lay over some, no matter the ballast ratio. High ballast ratios don't do much until the boat is heeled over.
Witness the later generations of 12-meter Americas Cup boats, long narrow hulls and they were getting up near 60% ballast and would still be rail-down in 20kts wind.
She's got, (ketch rig,) somewhere around ~1,000 sqft sail, and no doubt will move right along.
Downwind rolling?
While narrow boats do generally roll easier, a look at the lines would tell more about that, an architect could make a better appraisal about how the waterplane changes/center of buoyancy shifts from heeling.
My guess?
She'll heel fairly easily at first, then stiffen-up as the ballast starts coming into effect.
Dead downwind rolling?
Hard to say, metacentric height will affect the roll period as well as her speed thru water, (the size of the hole the boat digs affects its midships buoyancy).

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by Jimbo2010

100K for very dated design, transom kinda unusual, not something I would buy, moreover resale can;t be strong

To each his own. I have sailed a $400,000 Jeaneau 419 for 5000 miles with no sea berths and a plumb bow which drops the boatspeed 1 knot in every wave. I'd rather spend less than half as much on a boat which has cabinetry built out of real wood, not pressboard with unsealed edges.

[HankOnthewater]

Originally Posted by Katapult Mike

I can't find any info on the sail area, but with the ketch rig the sails look pretty manageable. The cozy little pilot house looks like just the thing when the waether is messy. And provided sail area is adequate, it should be a fast boat.

Any opinions on suitability of the boat for stated purpose, and on the boat in general, welcome. I've never seen anything like it.

Interesting boat! The sail areas are on one of the photos :120 M2 that is main+mizzen+genoa. Is that 1200 square foot?

The large scoop stern looks out of proportion, but I would think a very suitable cruising boat. The electronics seem bit old.

[Katapult Mike]

Originally Posted by HankOnthewater

Interesting boat! The sail areas are on one of the photos :120 M2 that is main+mizzen+genoa. Is that 1200 square foot?

The large scoop stern looks out of proportion, but I would think a very suitable cruising boat. The electronics seem bit old.

Well done catching that! 120 M2 is actually 1292 square feet. Seems like a lot for this boat! I make the SA/D to be 24.7. I guess good to have it available for the Med, where winds are often light, but I would expect you'd be shortening sail a lot.

Altogether, an unusual boat. The pilot house kinda sorta puts it in motorsailor territory. But most motorsailors are tubby, usually heavy and short on sail area (Sorry motorsailor fans! Feel free post up exceptions!).

This boat is kind of racy, with a small pilot house plunked on it. A couple could cruise on it, enjoy what I suspect is some pretty good sailing performance, but be able to hide from the weather when desired. The transom could be viewed as a bit much junk in the trunk, but it has advanatages as a boarding platform. And when you look at her in profile, the lines are pretty pleasing to my eye:



Not too much freeboard, and the piot house not too overwhelming. I think the photo taken from the back sort of exagerates teh already exagerated sugar scoop

[merrydolphin]

Ever hear of a guy named Steve Dashew. He, as you probably know designed some amazing cruising boats. Both sail and power ocean long range cruisers. They were fast and seaworthy. And they featured very extreme length to beam ratios. Another one, not as hi-end but still of the same basic ilk, and very fast was the Mc Gregor 65. Those boats were fast! And have sailed many ocean miles. They were an amazing “bang for the buck” boat. And yes, beam is but one way of gaining stability, but only initial stability. Ultimate stability comes from ballast. Size and depth.

[Katapult Mike]

Originally Posted by merrydolphin

Ever hear of a guy named Steve Dashew. He, as you probably know designed some amazing cruising boats. Both sail and power ocean long range cruisers. They were fast and seaworthy. And they featured very extreme length to beam ratios. Another one, not as hi-end but still of the same basic ilk, and very fast was the Mc Gregor 65. Those boats were fast! And have sailed many ocean miles. They were an amazing “bang for the buck” boat. And yes, beam is but one way of gaining stability, but only initial stability. Ultimate stability comes from ballast. Size and depth.

I sailed on a McGregor 65 in the Virgin Islands once. Fast, yes. No way would I go offshore on one. It made a mass-production French boat look like a battleship. No matter how few bucks I invested in one, I would be afriad the thing would just go "bang" and fold itself in half. Most likely at the worst possitle moment. If that is a comp, I think I have just lost all interest in the Helmsman 49.....

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by Katapult Mike

I sailed on a McGregor 65 in the Virgin Islands once. Fast, yes. No way would I go offshore on one. It made a mass-production French boat look like a battleship. No matter how few bucks I invested in one, I would be afriad the thing would just go "bang" and fold itself in half.

You're not the only one.

[donradcliffe]

The Big Mac was in a league all its own. I remember reports of the hull delaminating going 25 knots DOWNWIND.