Americas Cup Foiling AC75 concept

[lateral]

Originally Posted by Chris 249

On the other hand, it can be said that the idea that the AC is in the extreme is pretty much the dream of a few PR hacks. Compare your boat to a 12 Metre of the same era - with its wider, flatter lighter hull, fin keel and detached rudder your boat's clearly ahead.

The first America was basically a pilot schooner with more accommodation. The first challengers were cruiser/racers - one was the liveaboard home of the owners and came complete with a pet monkey. Twelves were very conservative - you can just step off a typical Beneteau or something and feel right at home.

There were a few extreme-ish AC boats like Reliance, but they were fairly quickly replaced by the Universal Rule/J Class boats. Herreshoff created that rule specifically to get rid of the extreme boats. The Js were big, but in design terms actually much less extreme than older boats. Same with the 12s.

Look at the major developments in the sport, and the AC lags decades behind the leading edge extremes. Multis had class racing in the 1870s, finally got into the AC in the 1980s. Bermudan sloops were in international small boat races in 1893, finally made it into the AC about 1930. Fin keelers with spade rudders were in small boats in 1891, made it into the AC match in the '90s. Laminate sails were in small boats in the '60s, in the AC in the '70s. Foam sandwich construction was in small boats in the '50s, in ocean racers in the '60s, in the AC in the '80s. Carbon spars were in small boats in the '70s, kevlar spars were in maxis in the '70s, made it into the AC in the '90s.

Compare an 1876 AC boat with Herreshoff's Amaryllis, an 1890s AC boat with a Half Rater or Unrestricted Patiki, a 12 Metre with Tabarly's wingmasted trimaran or his water-ballasted singlehanded racer, or even Australia II with a contemporary carbon wingmasted semi-foiling trimaran or a maxi boat and the America's Cupper looks positively mainstream.

Time and time again, the AC has been decades behind the extreme leading edge. The British boats normally just did all the usual coastal regattas year after year, and they mixed it with smaller boats to the same sort of rules. The AC boats weren't even the biggest boats around - the racing schooners and maxi offshore boats were much faster.

Thats a revelation.
I guess I didn't start following it until S&S cat vs KZ1.
Then there was the plastic boat in freemantle and a little momentum gathered. Wasn't until Ellison vs Bertarelli the gloves came off and technology & legal manoeuvring became part of racing strategy.
Although doesn't the wording of the deed of gift encourage a battle of technology? I'm surprised it languished so long.

[Polux]

This is going to be interesting. I have some doubts regarding the practicability of the concept but this was studied by the design teams of Luna Rossa and the NZ team.

The studies indicated were that these monohulls would be faster than the America's cup cats.

For the ones that seem to think that the boat looks like a trimaran, a much better image is a boat with two canting keels with the ballast assuming a foil design.

In fact there was already at least a design with this type of keel, fixed and with a bulb between the two "arms", there was already designs that sailed with the bulb out of the water (canting keel).





Two two concepts are brought together now and we will have two canting keels that can be sailed with the ballast out of water plus a ballast design that assumes a foil design.

I cannot wait to see the first tests.

[robert sailor]

Good on the Kiwis...best damn sailors in the world from such a small nation at that. We can expect them to lead the way when it comes to high performance sailing. Cats were fun for a change but I'm glad to see potentially even faster monos coming back. Should lead to a new level of interest in the sport. R

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by gjorgensen

When I see this thing, for some reason all I can think of is this:

So, you've met one of the designers!

[Chris 249]

Originally Posted by Polux

There was already designs that sailed with the bulb out of the water (canting keel).



[/IMG]

No longer; despite a crew that included world champs and Olympic team members, "Q" fell over a couple of times and I believe she has been high and dry for ages. I believe the Libera A with the same concept has been banned.

[Chris 249]

Originally Posted by lateral

Thats a revelation.
I guess I didn't start following it until S&S cat vs KZ1.
Then there was the plastic boat in freemantle and a little momentum gathered. Wasn't until Ellison vs Bertarelli the gloves came off and technology & legal manoeuvring became part of racing strategy.
Although doesn't the wording of the deed of gift encourage a battle of technology? I'm surprised it languished so long.

Cheers. Even the plastic AC boats in Freo lagged years behind plastic dinghies (1950s) and plastic offshore racers (1960s).

There's battles and battles. The AC has normally been about incremental tweaks and applying older ideas to big boats. It seems to have obtained a different reputation in the past few years as PR hacks hype up the BS because it's an easy way to promote the AC.

[rgleason]

There is no way to go back. Teamwork, speed and technology are what make the America's Cup. Foiling monohulls and soft sails will advance the sport and provide a great vehical for national competition. I hope the crews become "nationals" again and that the Kiwis wind up hosting the next one too!

[Pelagic]

I am ok with the team nationality being determined by the syndicate's key sponsor and they are not restricted in putting together the Best team they can attract.

That way you could have more than one National team in the Challenger series and the Defender can have their own run off to choose the strongest Defender

To me, it is all about achieving the best...not who achieves it.

Been to a few AC's and NZ 2000 was by far the best LV Cup as the whole country was involved.....It was a great time!

[30yearslater]

Just my opinion but I don't see much in trickle down technology here. Somehow I can't imagine Grandma cranking hydraulic power units to shift canting keels or the kids scrambling around furling and unfurling some massive Code Zero. But hell if a bunch of billionaires want to spend obscene amounts of money and hire professional crews go for it. I enjoy the spectacle as well as the next person. After a jaunt to Annapolis to visit my son and taking in the boat show as an aside, I was impressed by the gogillion dollar boats with their dance hall sized salons devoid of any hand holds. Those plumb bows ought to offer a refreshing dousing in a seaway as waves move unrestricted over the boat and sending anyone not tethered in through the stern for a nice swim. I enjoy watching the progress of the VOR boats but weeks of pipe berths and tripping over various accoutrements doesn't appeal to me either. All that being said if they pull this off it should be a great way to spend a snowy day watching Youtube videos of the sideshow.

[Chris 249]

Originally Posted by rgleason

There is no way to go back. Teamwork, speed and technology are what make the America's Cup. Foiling monohulls and soft sails will advance the sport and provide a great vehical for national competition. I hope the crews become "nationals" again and that the Kiwis wind up hosting the next one too!

There's lots of ways to "go back". Look at Formula One - they "went back" banning fan cars, active chassis, ground effects, larger engines, higher boost, traction control, etc etc etc. Look at the Volvo Ocean Race - it "went back" from a development 70 to a one design 65. The offshore multis "went back" in the '80s from 85 foot Formula One boats to ORMA 60s for about 20 years. Swimming "went back" when they banned the streamlined suits. Rowing "went back" when they banned sliding riggers.

Sports "go back" regularly so obviously there IS a way.

If speed and technology make the America's Cup then what was the event that happened from about 1967 to 1987, when the AC was sailed in boats that were dramatically slower and lower tech than offshore shorthanded multis and normal maxi yachts? An AC boat like Courageous had no hope of being as fast as contemporary maxi like Kialoa III, Ballyhoo or Windward Passage, and the tech of the 12s was very restricted - hulls had to be built to Lloyds for example. And there was no comparison in speed between the wing-masted high-performance multis of that era and the 12s.

The fact is that the AC is normally sailed in older tech using boats that are either little if at all faster than normal big regatta yachts, or much slower. This exotic construction wing masted foiler with double surface sails was most definitely NOT slower and lower tech than the alloy 12 Metres that were used in the AC at the same time.


https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ff/67/b1/f...ling-ships.jpg

[Chris 249]

Here's a classic example of the AC lagging. The first bermudan rig to race in an international contest was seen on Ethelwynn, victor of the Seawanhaka Cup in 1895.

The bermudan rig was first used in a really big boat in 1921, when the 23 Metre Nyria (above) was fitted with one. The 23 Metres were essentially the same size as the J Class and some of them (Candida, White Heather II etc) were actually converted to rate as Js.

The first bermudan rig in the America's Cup was in the 1930 challenge - 35 years after it had been proven in small yachts and 9 years after it had been proven in AC-size boats. The AC once again lagged, rather than lead.

https://afloat.ie/images/news_conten...s/Nyria_14.jpg

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Chris 249

No longer; despite a crew that included world champs and Olympic team members, "Q" fell over a couple of times and I believe she has been high and dry for ages. I believe the Libera A with the same concept has been banned.

I said that there was designs made that way and that was not the only one. The fact that it was not a successful racer takes nothing to what I said. I can understand quite well why such a design would be very tricky to sail and prone to capsizing.

[barnakiel]

At 75' the boat is simply too big for the event in its present form.

And the business driven built limitations are overwhelming for less affluent teams from countries other than France, NZ, US and few others. Who can bake a 75' hull?

Technically, I cannot wrap my head around the foil being ballasted while lifted.

I think Kiwis are taking the event backwards into some pseudo nationalistic (but otherwise strictly money driven) crash.

The boat may fly (not a lot though, as i know Auckland area and its fickle winds) but the event will sink.

Cheers,
b.

[Pegu Club]

Originally Posted by David M

Let's just go back to 12 Meters and bore the hell out of people. Some sailors may like full displacement 12 Meters because they understand what is happening but the general public would find them boring compared to boats with foils.

If one does not like the increased risk of foils, then don't be a competitor. Most all sports have their physical risks...except maybe curling or badminton.

The Americas Cup should not be just for keeping sailors (a very small market) entertained.

As you said, Sailing is a very small niche activity in which so few take part, as compared to say, soccer, cycling, baseball, basketball, etc.
It all comes down to money / disposable income. A lot more folk can afford a soccer ball and play the game than can do the same with a sail boat.
Sailing as an activity has always been a game played by those with the wear with all to play.
I still like the VOR boats it's exciting to watch, more so than foiling cats imo.

[leboyd]

Personally, “going back” would put the AC much further down the list of what I want to watch. I’m young (57), so I still like new technology (even if I won’t see it in my boat/car/truck/motorcycle/etc.) and speed with danger. I like the changes AC has made - except I would have liked this races to be about 50% longer.