Amel Super Maramu question

[alsail]

Hi. it's been a year of thinking of my new boat but
still can't make a decision. The more I look and research the harder to decide. I was looking at Amel Santorin over Super Maramu because of maintainance costs, but couldn't find one close to NZ. Then aluminium Vs steel debate ate my free time. After sleepless nights thinking about what to do, I am leaning towards a Super Maramu in NZ. Few questions for owners. I know they are very good boats but one thing I don't like is the electric motors for sails.
1.Is there possible to manage sails manually?
2 How hard is it to do it on such a big boat ?
3 Roughly, can you approximate maintainance for a 1998-2002 SM in comparison with a 2006,48 ft steel Ganley in good condition (no rust)? How about other advantages or disadvantages?
The steel Ganley would be a cutter rigged 14T displacement centre cockpit with cored decks.
Thank you

[a64pilot]

I have watched a neighbor do a lot of work on his boat.
From what I could tell, yes you can certainly work the sails manually and while I’m certain it’s more work than using the electrics, it seemed to be a well thought out system.
Being a ketch ought to make it easier, plus from what I saw the mechanics seemed to be pretty straight forward without any real Rube Goldberg mechanics.
Boat with retractable bow thrusters and all the electromechanical systems is a complex boat, not suitable I don’t think for someone that can’t perform rudimentary repairs, but for someone that isn’t afraid to tear into a gearbox it seems to be pretty straight forward.
They are complex though and that means more maintenance, no doubt about that. If the preventative maintenance is kept up with it looked to be a good robust system.

[nelson_dk]

Hi there!
I have owned a SM2000 and feel honored to have had the privilige.
The DC motors are quite reliable, no worries, and even if the SM is quite a technical "monster", she is also very simple to repair once you dig into things. But yes it can feel quite intimidating looking at it all on specs, and thinking about all the stuff that needs maintenance or repairs. But in reality, the systems are so simple and very reliable. E.g. sail control; Control switch, relay, cable, DC motor, gear.
Manual furling is possible, and very simple too, but requires a deck walk. I prefer using the switch in the cockpit
You will love the SM, amazing monohull, and she sails very well and you fell very safe as winds pick up.
Make sure to find one that has been properly maintained, and not suffered years of negligence.
BR Niels

[HankOnthewater]

Originally Posted by alsail

1.Is there possible to manage sails manually?
2 How hard is it to do it on such a big boat ?
3 Roughly, can you approximate maintainance for a 1998-2002 SM in comparison with a 2006,48 ft steel Ganley in good condition (no rust)? How about other advantages or disadvantages?
The steel Ganley would be a cutter rigged 14T displacement centre cockpit with cored decks.
Thank you

48 ft steel Ganley at 14 tonnes? That is optimistic I would say.... but when checking the Ganley site, Steel yachts from Ganley Yachts found two 46 footers listed as 12 tonnes.......

I have maintained (but never owned) three large steel boats 42, 45 and 53 ft. And on only one of them the hull was good and virtually maintenance free, apart from keeping up the paint and polish.
And even then, steel is much more maintenance than fibreglass, imo.

And then there is all the other maintenance of other stuff that could be identical: electrics, electronics, plumbing, groundtackle, hatches/perspex replacement.

The following maintenance could be less on a Super Marumu:
- steering as the Ganley likely has hydraulic steering
- no timber on deck in SM
- access to engine is very good, so maintenance tasks which could be similar, are made easier that way

The following could be more maintenance on an SM:
- rigging, 2 masts/rigging vs one
- special prop bearing and seal, vs cutlass (or is it "cutless"?) bearing
- electric winches (two main ones), vs manual ones
- electric furlers, vs furling line
- in-mast electric furling, vs ????

Who wins on maintenance?
However one must ask the question what are the benefits of owing/sailing a SM compared with that particular Ganley.

[alsail]

Originally Posted by nelson_dk

Hi there!
I have owned a SM2000 and feel honored to have had the privilige.
The DC motors are quite reliable, no worries, and even if the SM is quite a technical "monster", she is also very simple to repair once you dig into things. But yes it can feel quite intimidating looking at it all on specs, and thinking about all the stuff that needs maintenance or repairs. But in reality, the systems are so simple and very reliable. E.g. sail control; Control switch, relay, cable, DC motor, gear.
Manual furling is possible, and very simple too, but requires a deck walk. I prefer using the switch in the cockpit
You will love the SM, amazing monohull, and she sails very well and you fell very safe as winds pick up.
Make sure to find one that has been properly maintained, and not suffered years of negligence.
BR Niels

Thanks for that, yes it is intimidating, . SM ticks all the boxes except simplicity. But if I can operate all sails manually with lines leading back in the cockpit (if I consider I don't want the electric motors), then it is not a bad option at all. Other than that I like SM because she is seaworthy, strongly built, helm position is great, but the greatest feature is engine access with a dedicated space. Water access is again brilliant, no teak decks. Is there any case of osmosis with Amels? It seems like none of them have ever had any problem....?

[alsail]

Originally Posted by HankOnthewater

48 ft steel Ganley at 14 tonnes? That is optimistic I would say.... but when checking the Ganley site, Steel yachts from Ganley Yachts found two 46 footers listed as 12 tonnes.......

I have maintained (but never owned) three large steel boats 42, 45 and 53 ft. And on only one of them the hull was good and virtually maintenance free, apart from keeping up the paint and polish.
And even then, steel is much more maintenance than fibreglass, imo.

And then there is all the other maintenance of other stuff that could be identical: electrics, electronics, plumbing, groundtackle, hatches/perspex replacement.

The following maintenance could be less on a Super Marumu:
- steering as the Ganley likely has hydraulic steering
- no timber on deck in SM
- access to engine is very good, so maintenance tasks which could be similar, are made easier that way

The following could be more maintenance on an SM:
- rigging, 2 masts/rigging vs one
- special prop bearing and seal, vs cutlass (or is it "cutless"?) bearing
- electric winches (two main ones), vs manual ones
- electric furlers, vs furling line
- in-mast electric furling, vs ????

Who wins on maintenance?
However one must ask the question what are the benefits of owing/sailing a SM compared with that particular Ganley.

The Ganley Solution I am looking at has decks and cabin made out of cored GRP(ply). From what you say SM is better for: not maintaining steel/rust, steering. Ganley is better for rigging and all the electric winches, furlers. When I say better I mean from maintainance point of view. Engine wise, I think they have pretty similar units. Is it wise to call maintenance a tie, from your point of view?

[alsail]

One other advantage of steel would be better collision protection? Is it such a big difference in the real world? My previous boat was a catamaran, wood cored. I hated the fragility of it and sworn I will never have a GRp boat. This is why I looked at steel.....then chasing rust is not necessary a better option...hence my indecision.

[HankOnthewater]

Originally Posted by alsail

The Ganley Solution I am looking at has decks and cabin made out of cored GRP(ply). From what you say SM is better for: not maintaining steel/rust, steering. Ganley is better for rigging and all the electric winches, furlers. When I say better I mean from maintainance point of view. Engine wise, I think they have pretty similar units. Is it wise to call maintenance a tie, from your point of view?

Although I don't own a SM, and never seen 'your' Ganley, it is hard to say who wins in the maintenance stakes. I would guess: a Super Marumu, as the winches and furlers, as has been said in this thread, are very reliable.

As far as steel being the strongest material: yes it is.

As far as getting an SM and then disabling electric furlers..... By all means do that, if you are young, strong, fit and healthy, and you have crew in a similar shape. BUT...... I think it is a general accepted wisdom when you buy a boat, not to change anything until you have owned a boat for 12-18 months. I bet my best bottle of wine you will leave the electric furlers in situ

And if you are physically in good shape, even then..... check out the "Delos" videos, they sail an SM, and the crew is in good shape and they use the electric winches.

Disclaimer, I have only watched 1.5 episodes of their videos, that one of Cocos/Chagos.
Disclaimer #2: I am fit and healthy, I was a purist type of sailor, until I got furlers like the SM has, and loving it, so I am biased

[Kenomac]

I don’t understand the fear of electric motors and automation? We’ve had systems like electric furlers and windlasses fail us on rare occasions, but it wasn’t a big deal to do things manually while repairs were underway. Even hauling up a 45kg anchor and 1/2 chain wasn’t an impossible task.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I don’t understand the fear of electric motors and automation? We’ve had systems like electric furlers and windlasses fail us on rare occasions, but it wasn’t a big deal to do things manually while repairs were underway. Even hauling up a 45kg anchor and 1/2 chain wasn’t an impossible task.

Any new technology is that way, when GPS was first introduced, many wouldn’t trust it, said that it was going to lead to accidents etc.
However eventually it has become mainstream.
I wasn’t around, but understand when elevators were built without a person running it, many people would take the stairs rather than trust the automation.
Now of course we don’t even think about it.

Many now speak of the horrors of self driving automobiles, but when they become mainstream, we are going to see that they are in fact safer.

[Sojourner]

Never had any experience with a steel boat, but the maintenance I read about put me off them pretty quick. After a year of debating and comparing and searching, I bought a SM a few months ago.... best thing I ever did in my life (at least on the water). I think it's probably true what they say about Amels, you either love them or hate them. Definitely not at all like the other production boats, but to me that was the huge draw. Inside looks like a little french boudoir, not an Ikea You feel snug and safe and cosy, and you have immense storage space. Every little thing was thought out and refined over a lot of years for safety and comfort in that order, from the manual failsafe water gauge (a floating rod that physically is in the water tank with a scale along the top end), watertight bulkheads, everything-from-the-cockpit safety (and I do mean about everything but the spinnaker, but if you use the Amel downwind ballooner, you can furl that from the cockpit too. Anything electric has redundant winch operation. The cockpit is my personal dream come true, high dry ergonomic...delivered her across the Med in January through 3 big storms much of the way with an inexperienced crew and played canasta in short sleeves upstairs while she drove herself through some pretty nasty stuff. Other favorite parts: the amazing aft cabin, which was converted into a king size bed, and the huge sun-deck. Get some cushions made up for it and you got another king size bed area just aft of the cockpit to soak up the sun, something you'll rarely if ever find in any sailboat this small.

Only drawback is the utter inability of the thing to drive astern with any control without the bow thruster (or maybe that's just me?) The retractable bowthruster is big, though, and with it you can make an Amel dance, so that's not a huge thing (yeah yeah until it breaks). But Amels also seem to have been built to a very high quality, so with some regular maintenance, you won't break much of anything. If you can find a good one, I'd say jump on it.

[alsail]

[QUOTE=a64pilot;2632196]Any new technology is that way, when GPS was first introduced, many wouldn’t trust it, said that it was going to lead to accidents etc.
However eventually it has become mainstream.
I wasn’t around, but understand when elevators were built without a person running it, many people would take the stairs rather than trust the automation.
Now of course we don’t even think about it.

Many now speak of the horrors of self driving automobiles, but when they become mainstream, we are going to see that they are in fact safer.[/QUOTE

I know what you mean, but don't see the relevance here. I am not afraid of the electric furlers because I know they have manual back up. It is just the need for simplicity and reliability. A system with less elements will have less chances to brake, that is all. There are 2 kinds of people, some of them will buy a sport car and be happy with a self driving one but then people like me would like a manual gearbox and manual windows to feel the real thing. But again that is not relevant to a SM, cause if I decide (in 1 or 2 years) to take the electric motors out I can do that pretty easy. My problem is that I get a few extra things that I would rather not pay for it. AC for example, I never use that and I have never had one in my house, car , boat. But I guess there is no perfect boat unless you order new, which is not even remotely possible for me. All the best....

[hpeer]

I’m a Steel boat fan although an Amelnsould tempt me. There is just so much variability in the build of Steel boats. If it was built right, coated right and maintained right the maintenance is pretty low. Steel tends to be a dry boat, many fg boats have deck leaks. Actually the wood deck would put me off. I know another well built Steel boat with a wood deck that is fine. I just like the ability to weld stuff on when I want to.

[alsail]

Originally Posted by hpeer

I’m a Steel boat fan although an Amelnsould tempt me. There is just so much variability in the build of Steel boats. If it was built right, coated right and maintained right the maintenance is pretty low. Steel tends to be a dry boat, many fg boats have deck leaks. Actually the wood deck would put me off. I know another well built Steel boat with a wood deck that is fine. I just like the ability to weld stuff on when I want to.

The owner said he had it built that way to save weight on top....I am mostly afraid of deck to hull joint. The deck sits on steel beams that run across. She looks immaculate in and out. Will have another look in 2 days at both SM and Ganley and I will try to look behind the panels if we can remove them. The bilges look great and you can see it hasn't been patch painted . Decisions decisions.....,

[Kenomac]

[QUOTE=alsail;2632344]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Any new technology is that way, when GPS was first introduced, many wouldn’t trust it, said that it was going to lead to accidents etc.
However eventually it has become mainstream.
I wasn’t around, but understand when elevators were built without a person running it, many people would take the stairs rather than trust the automation.
Now of course we don’t even think about it.

Many now speak of the horrors of self driving automobiles, but when they become mainstream, we are going to see that they are in fact safer.[/QUOTE

I know what you mean, but don't see the relevance here. I am not afraid of the electric furlers because I know they have manual back up. It is just the need for simplicity and reliability. A system with less elements will have less chances to brake, that is all. There are 2 kinds of people, some of them will buy a sport car and be happy with a self driving one but then people like me would like a manual gearbox and manual windows to feel the real thing. But again that is not relevant to a SM, cause if I decide (in 1 or 2 years) to take the electric motors out I can do that pretty easy. My problem is that I get a few extra things that I would rather not pay for it. AC for example, I never use that and I have never had one in my house, car , boat. But I guess there is no perfect boat unless you order new, which is not even remotely possible for me. All the best....

You have it kinda backwards. We’ve had full manual systems on our Hunter, full electric and hydraulic on our Oyster 53, and now full hydraulic on the 62. Nothing could be simpler than pushing buttons and with many fewer opportunities of getting injured. If simplicity is your goal... go with buttons.