AMEL - Death of the Cruising Ketch ?

[MicHughV]

yes, plastic has overtaken our lives, without a doubt, and sad to say, but a wood boat is also a relic of the past...finding good boat building wood is an ever diminishing chore...
I have read the Pardee's book....he hoarded wood like it was the crown jewels...

[MicHughV]

referencing the mizzen on a yawl location....behind a vertical line of where the stern exists the water...wouldn't that also be behind the rudder post ??? I think I like my definition better...more salty :-)

[MicHughV]

where the stern EXITS the water....my bad... :-(

[Scotty Kiwi]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

No more quarter berths and no more pilot berths above settee.

No more galley slaves
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galley_slave
(The Wiki reference is to prove I am not referring the Admiral - Galley salves as in Greece, Sparta, Rome)

[Scotty Kiwi]

Maybe I've gotta really get up with the times .... But having sloops for 15 years and a ketch for 15 years ...

The main thing for my about my ketch was the easier balancing of the vessel - 20 minutes of trimming sail and then, often, did not need the auto to self steer, day after day, (reaching). But I now note some newer sloops are using dagger boards each side of the rudder to fix that. Now wondering if the Amel sloop considers dagger boards?

And we called the mizzen boom "Derrick" on a regular basis - very handy.

The (apparent) ketch advantage of relatively lighter sail handling gear, and the potential less complication still feels right ... But now the electric winches are so much more reliable.

Two or three years ago I asked a leading cruising trimaran designer if he could do a ketch rig. He laughed, and changed the subject, struggling to be courteous!

Probably I'd still go ketch on a 15 year + old vessel .. but sloop if buying new.

Hmmm.

[robert sailor]

I’ve always learned the difference between yawls and a ketch was if the mast was forward of the rudder post it was a ketch but if it was aft of the rudder post a yawl. Now have a look at many older full keel boats and it’s not uncommon for that rudder post to be well forward and a long overhang makes it even further. And yes generally the yawl has a shorter stick. The yawl was a cheater design back in the CCA racing days where that sail area was never written into the rules so it was free and wasn’t handy capped. The only time you might eek out a little extra power from it was on a reach, going Hard to windward it worked against you so not used then

[Elie]

Originaly the idea of a ketch or schooner rig was to split the sail area to get manageables sails sizes, and the possibility of many sail combinations adapted to the conditions of wind and sea. But genoa Furlers(electrics ones!), in mast or in boom furlers, powerfull winches along with computer designed boats that are inherantly well balanced, has permited single larger sail plans of the sloop type. Hamel had to adapt and modernise its concepts. Remember all the conservative concepts like long keels, attached rudders, and heavy displacement that have taken the same route as the Hamel Ketch rig... And good riddance...

[robert sailor]

If you want to see a pic of a well known racing yawl google Colombia 50 yawl..gotta throw in yawl as they made lots of sloops. It was the largest sailboat built in AMERICA when it was first produced. Typical CCA design with long overhangs which was another way to cheat the rules. Steve Dashew bought a well used one and circumnavigated with wife and family. It was that experience that got him in the boat business and book writing.

[Mickeyrouse]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Amel is simply building boats that their customers want to buy. If you want to buy a ketch there are lots of used ones. Simply no desire for ketches anymore, are there? No more full keels, no more ketches, no more round ports, no more tan bark sails, no more oil lamps, no more paper charts.....ok you guys help me out..what else is no more in newsailing boats?

Real sailors?

[Mickeyrouse]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

I’ve always learned the difference between yawls and a ketch was if the mast was forward of the rudder post it was a ketch but if it was aft of the rudder post a yawl. Now have a look at many older full keel boats and it’s not uncommon for that rudder post to be well forward and a long overhang makes it even further. And yes generally the yawl has a shorter stick. The yawl was a cheater design back in the CCA racing days where that sail area was never written into the rules so it was free and wasn’t handy capped. The only time you might eek out a little extra power from it was on a reach, going Hard to windward it worked against you so not used then

Amen. We’ve sailed our yawl for 25 years. The mizzen stays under cover sometimes for a full season. But it’s the only one in our marina. A useless sail half the time. Yet I’d never have anything but.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Mickeyrouse

Amen. We’ve sailed our yawl for 25 years. The mizzen stays under cover sometimes for a full season. But it’s the only one in our marina. A useless sail half the time. Yet I’d never have anything but.

That’s only because you own and sail one of the most beautiful sailboats ever designed, like the Columbia some were yawls and some sloops. Your boat is timeless...no matter how many new boats are designed they will be discarded as last years design and forgotten almost immediately...not yours....50 years from now it will still win beauty contests.

PS sailing changes like everything else in our lives, are the new guys as well rounded as some of the old salts, probably not but with push button sailing I guess they just don’t need to be.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

referencing the mizzen on a yawl location....behind a vertical line of where the stern exists the water...wouldn't that also be behind the rudder post ??? I think I like my definition better...more salty :-)

But not all boats having their rudder post so far aft. Mine is two meters forward of the aft water line..

[Mickeyrouse]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

like the Columbia 50 some were yawls and some sloops.

Should be no surprise they were both designed by Bill Tripp.

[billgewater]

From Wiki
The term, yacht, originates from the Dutch word jacht (pl. jachten, which means "hunt"), and originally referred to light, fast sailing vessels that the Dutch Republic navy used to pursue pirates and other transgressors around and into the shallow waters of the Low Countries.

So we have monster over the top zillionaires extravaganza motor vessels taking the descriptor of "A Grand Yacht". Catamaran condominiums as well.

So maybe the loss of the reverence for boat styles is something we just have to live with.

And there I was thinking that a Yawl was part of a Texan greeting. As in "How de do, yawl?"

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Bill O

If you've never sailed a ketch rig, you really don't appreciate the advantages of it. The push button only makes it easier.
Maybe too many sail options available/to think about w/the ketch rig, so the sloop is easier for many.

The whole thing here is that sloops are CHEAPER. That's, er, the bottom line.


The bean counters at Amel after Henri's death just decided not to spend the money. That allows them to either be a bit more competitive in price or make a little more profit or both.


Besides being cheaper, sloops sail a little better upwind, all other things being equal, are simpler (if not easier) to sail, have less cluttered deck. Ketches have a lot more sail plan flexibility and have a number of other advantages.


I like ketches myself, at least in boats over 50 and preferably over 60 feet. Would be my choice if I were building from scratch, for the kind of sailing I do. Ketches make a lot of sense for the kind of long distance sailing the original Amels were built for. But not much sense for more typical weekend/vacation short range cruising which is what 99% of cruising boats are designed for.



Don't know whether the current batch of Amels is aimed at the same clientele, or not.