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Old 26-12-2019, 07:07   #1
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Advice For Noobies (Sailing the Med in the Winter)

Hi Worldly Sailors!

I am new to this forum and sailing in general. Growing up in the Midwest gave me some experience sailing x boats and 420's, but aside from that I haven't had any skipping experience myself.

The reason I am on this forum is because my girlfriend and I have decided to take a sabbatical beginning next October, starting in Italy and sailing to Denmark (not in a rush). Time aligns with a wedding we will be attending in Italy and we are deciding to buy a one way ticket and sort things out once we get there.

1. We are looking to buy a inexpensive boat $15,000-$30,000 between 9m-11m and aside from that have little knowledge of boats or makes. I have done a bit of preliminary searching and the Endeavour 37 looks like something that may run a bit high on our price range, but is a good fit for what we are looking for. Does anyone have advice for a resilient low cost boat that may fit our budget? We would plan to resell the boat in Denmark or wherever we end up.

2. I also know that the winter in the Med is not the most ideal, but are there any recommendations for areas that may be more friendly to a crew looking to get their feet wet? Since we will be on the East Coast of Italy we figure the Adriatic would be an option.

3. We are beginning to do our research, but would love any recommendations for books that may provide greater insight!

Any responses are greatly appreciated!
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Old 27-12-2019, 07:28   #2
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Re: Advice For Noobies (Sailing the Med in the Winter)

The pictures and stories you’ve seen and heard about sailing in the Med generally take place in the summertime. There is a reason for this. People do sail in the cooler months - the season is longer than on lake Michigan - but the Med in winter can be tricky. Winds like the Meltemi and Mistral tend to make longer-haul trips like the one you outline much less enjoyable and much more dangerous. Taking a new-to-you bargain boat with inexperienced crew out of season on even a short hop is not the romantic scene you might envisage. It is more likely a recipe for a possible cold, short, disaster. European regulations require certain equipment for venturing more than a specified distance from port. Does your boat-to-be include this stuff? Finding out that it doesn’t could mean months of delay, which could shorten your sabbatical journey. Do you have the license that is required to operate a VHF radio? Do you have whatever level of training and the permit that might be required in Italy for you to captain a boat offshore? Europeans are aghast at the idea that Americans don’t need a license to operate a boat. In France there are several levels of different permits. Italy is probably similar. Do you speak Italian, French, Spanish, Dutch, German, or Danish, to help you deal with authorities who might stop and question a lone sailboat heading out in conditions that locals know are unfavorable?
The idea might work if you have enough time to arrive in Italy, purchase the boat, learn its foibles (and yours), and set out in the summer. You might be able to avoid the permits issues by registering the boat in the US, but that would take time too. Even then, unless you plan to go via the canals, dealing with Gibraltar, the Atlantic Ocean, the Bay of Biscay, and the English Channel is a tall order for a someone with no skippering experience who’s only sailed in the midwest.
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Old 27-12-2019, 07:32   #3
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Re: Advice For Noobies (Sailing the Med in the Winter)

Thanks for the response! This is the information I need to get going with logistical planning and learning.

We want to go about this venture the right way, so we are not looking to rush into anything. We live in the Bay Area (San Francisco) and will be beginning building our cruising resume this January working towards our ICC. We also will begin crewing in the area to build up experience till we leave.
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Old 27-12-2019, 07:35   #4
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Re: Advice For Noobies (Sailing the Med in the Winter)

I only know of two options. You can buy a boat with a very moderate draft and drop the mast so you can cross from the Med to the Channel or North Sea by the canal system. This, as noted, will require getting the required training and licenses.


The other option is out Gibraltar north across the Bay of Biscay and up the English Chanel then east to Denmark. Trying to sail across the Bay of Biscay in the winter is not advisable IE don't even try unless you are very experienced and sailing something a whole lot better than a $15,000 boat.
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Old 27-12-2019, 07:46   #5
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Re: Advice For Noobies (Sailing the Med in the Winter)

"Trying to sail across the Bay of Biscay in the winter is not advisable IE don't even try unless you are very experienced and sailing something a whole lot better than a $15,000 boat."

Heck, I remember getting the tar knocked out on the south coast of Brittany in summer, with a capable boat, and with a good four-person crew. Amen to the above.

"get going with logistical planning and learning." Nope. Make alternative plans.

Hey, it's a dream, and we all pursue dreams, but this dream on this schedule with this money is not just ill-advised, it's lethal. Why not spend the sabbatical, if it has to be on that schedule, in a warm area getting your feet wet cruising, like the Carribean. Develop a doable dream, and go for it. I'm sure some forum members can and will coach you on it.
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Old 27-12-2019, 07:58   #6
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Re: Advice For Noobies (Sailing the Med in the Winter)

Thanks for the response and this is a very flexible plan at the moment. The one thing for sure is that we will be taking the time off. Where we sail is up to our experience and how conditions should fair given the region.

Seeing that the Med is looking like it may be off the table as per conditions and experience (after my in research into the region I felt like this may be the conclusion), would anyone have recommendations on other regions to grow our experience along with the Caribbean?

I am also not ignorant to the fact that there will be a lot of planning and experience needed to make for a successful venture, but need to get the ball rolling
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Old 27-12-2019, 08:05   #7
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Re: Advice For Noobies (Sailing the Med in the Winter)

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
I only know of two options. You can buy a boat with a very moderate draft and drop the mast so you can cross from the Med to the Channel or North Sea by the canal system. This, as noted, will require getting the required training and licenses.


The other option is out Gibraltar north across the Bay of Biscay and up the English Chanel then east to Denmark. Trying to sail across the Bay of Biscay in the winter is not advisable IE don't even try unless you are very experienced and sailing something a whole lot better than a $15,000 boat.
French canal system likely closed for work or frozen solid during the winter so that is a none starter. However, if you were to leave Italy in the late Spring and take your time then that could be doable.

In terms of a yacht, the Endeavour is unlikely to sell quickly, instead stick to a well known European brand, Bavaria, Beneteau, Jeanneau, Westerly or Moody for example. If your start point was Greece then you might find an ex charter yacht going cheap. Just watch the VAT issue if it is ex-charter.

This looks nice, but too deep for the canals:

https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1...-33-1-3616202/

This will fit and looks good in the photos so likely to sell quicker. If you are selling in Denmark or Holland draft may also be an issue if the next owner wants shallow draft for the Meres.

https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2...-29-2-3586368/

However, this is all being a bit rushed to meet the need to attend a wedding in Italy. Go to the wedding and fly home. However earlier before the high season kicks off go and charter a yacht in Greece for a week to decide if you both like sailing and living on a boat. Stay out of season and the prices are much lower?

https://www.sailionian.com/charter-yachts/bavaria-34/

Or join a floatila for the company and having a lead boat to make the decisions etc.
https://www.sunsail.co.uk/destinatio...rranean/greece
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Old 27-12-2019, 08:25   #8
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Re: Advice For Noobies (Sailing the Med in the Winter)

Even fly to Greece after the wedding and sail in a floatilla for a week or two.
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Old 27-12-2019, 08:58   #9
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Re: Advice For Noobies (Sailing the Med in the Winter)

Quote:
Originally Posted by srhaas View Post
Hi Worldly Sailors!

I am new to this forum and sailing in general. Growing up in the Midwest gave me some experience sailing x boats and 420's, but aside from that I haven't had any skipping experience myself.

The reason I am on this forum is because my girlfriend and I have decided to take a sabbatical beginning next October, starting in Italy and sailing to Denmark (not in a rush). Time aligns with a wedding we will be attending in Italy and we are deciding to buy a one way ticket and sort things out once we get there.

1. We are looking to buy a inexpensive boat $15,000-$30,000 between 9m-11m and aside from that have little knowledge of boats or makes. I have done a bit of preliminary searching and the Endeavour 37 looks like something that may run a bit high on our price range, but is a good fit for what we are looking for. Does anyone have advice for a resilient low cost boat that may fit our budget? We would plan to resell the boat in Denmark or wherever we end up.

2. I also know that the winter in the Med is not the most ideal, but are there any recommendations for areas that may be more friendly to a crew looking to get their feet wet? Since we will be on the East Coast of Italy we figure the Adriatic would be an option.

3. We are beginning to do our research, but would love any recommendations for books that may provide greater insight!

Any responses are greatly appreciated!
Alas, where you'll probably end up is on the rocks - which is never a good place to resell a boat I hate to be the curmudgeon of bad news but you really need to double that budget considering any decent boat you buy will still need several thousand in upgrades before you're really ready to take on that trip. The history of the Bay of Biscay is littered with horror stories.

Given that you're in the bay area you can get some very good experience with rough water sailing. Once you've bashed around a bit outside the Golden Gate you'll get a much better perspective of what you could be facing.
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Old 27-12-2019, 09:14   #10
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Re: Advice For Noobies (Sailing the Med in the Winter)

Srhaas did not mention how long their sabbatical is going to be, but are there not strict time limits on how long boats can stay in the EU and/or the Med?
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Old 27-12-2019, 09:15   #11
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Re: Advice For Noobies (Sailing the Med in the Winter)

Var, I was actually trying to make a note (editing capabilities should be updated haha).

*Note that I didn't include. We expect to take 1 year+ off if that changes recommendations. Open to staying local Oct-March especially due to the fact we may not leave our initial location till Nov with provisioning, repairs, etc.
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Old 27-12-2019, 09:42   #12
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Re: Advice For Noobies (Sailing the Med in the Winter)

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We expect to take 1 year+ off if that changes recommendations. Open to staying local Oct-March especially due to the fact we may not leave our initial location till Nov with provisioning, repairs, etc.
OK, well that gives you time to study IRPCS (rules of the road) in depth, go for some day sails and learn all about the yacht, fix things on board and test systems etc.

You will need to be in a marina with shorepower until the Spring and need a de-humidifier on board.
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Old 27-12-2019, 10:22   #13
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Re: Advice For Noobies (Sailing the Med in the Winter)

Hi I have sailed most of my life in the European Nordics , we sailed through the gulf of biskaye and portugal and now 3years in the med, Spain , Italy and Greece. With your level of experience (sfo bay, I have also sailed there) make another plan . Stay in the Med , most of the time easy sailing, and don’t even atempt to go north along the Portugese coast with 500 miles of very strong Norterlywinds ocean sailing. Don’t even think of the gulf of biskaye. Sorry to say but this area is only for the people that know what they do, and not for a small underequipped uacht with inexperienced crew.
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Old 27-12-2019, 15:53   #14
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Re: Advice For Noobies (Sailing the Med in the Winter)

From the OP...."starting in Italy and sailing to Denmark (not in a rush)...."........Etcetera.



Well- that's quite a trip.

What you describe is all perfectly do-able, but ....for a self-proclaimed Noobie, in a smallish, untested, as-yet-unbought boat...Just a few things you might like to factor in:

You've got 3 months in the EU before you have to leave for 3 months (minimum) (unless you have an EU passport).

10-15m tides, and places with tide races of 7 knots or more along parts of the Brittany coast. You ok with that?

English Channel/ Southern North Sea in places is VERY busy with commercial traffic. (Off Rotterdam, we had about 40 large commercial vessels visible on AIS at any one time, going every which way in the fog, and dark.) Plus other yachts, and stuff without AIS. You ok with that?

There is a lot to see. We spent a YEAR doing the Atlantic coast of France and Spain, and a year doing the Balearics, and missed loads. And a year in the Baltic, barely scratching the surface.

When locals are cautious about conditions at certain times, it's usually for a good reason. Biscay, for example, can be gorgeous, (we once sailed it 2-up with the spinnaker up, all night) but on a bad day (winter storms) its a really, REALLY bad place to be.

Most good insurance companies limit what they will cover you for, and when, and where, based on your experience levels, your boat, and their detailed knowledge of local conditions throughout the year. Listen to them. Argue (politely) with them if they have it wrong, but they are often right. (Going without insurance is not an option - you will need to go in at least a few marinas on a trip like this, unless you plan on doing it it one hit, and you need to show insurance to book in.)

Kitting out a boat for short-handed long-haul sailing is not cheap. Self-steering gear, for example (wind-steering and autopilots) are unlikely to be within your budget. Hand-steering for long trips is hard work.

And so on.



There is nothing wrong with having big plans.
But slightly smaller bite-size plans will be easier to bring to life.

Good luck!
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Old 27-12-2019, 16:37   #15
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Re: Advice For Noobies (Sailing the Med in the Winter)

Ha, ha, ha.... That's a hilarious post. Almost as good as the guy who made a PAN PAN post asking what that box-like thing at the end of the shaft is and why does it keep leaking...LOL


Seriously, we've all been newbies at one time or another, but the level of ignorance of today's wannabe cruisers is just astounding.


I blame it on the internet. Ironic, really.


Here's a pointer for you srhaas re one way ticket: you will not be allowed to enter the Eu on a one way ticket unless you are an EU citizen or resident, or can prove that you will leave by other means.. ie: you have a boat there waiting for you.


Not even gonna touch the winter cruising thing. Way too far out on the learning curve to bother talking about it now.
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