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27-10-2023, 09:26
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#31
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 21,621
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Re: A few questions about rival 32
My impression from the numbers is that it is a strong beefy boat which matches the reputation.
The reputation for being slow looks to be related to low Sail Area compared to displacement. SA/D is about 12.7. This is what a lot of motor sailors are. For a cruising sailboat going around the world you’d want to be over 15.
If you don’t wander much out of yor current area where light winds are less of a problem you’re probably ok.
The 2 things that correlate with speed and are easy to quantify are:
A. SA/D which predicts speed in light and moderate winds
B. LWL which predicts speed in moderate and heavy winds.
The really costly way to remedy this would be to get a taller mast.
The lest costly way but not cheap would be to lengthen the boom and get a new main to fit. This would require you to install a bow sprit to keep the boat balanced. That would then allow you get a much bigger drifter.
The existing job and lapped would probably still work on the boat.
__________________
Num Me Vexo?
For all of your celestial navigation questions: https://navlist.net/
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
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27-10-2023, 11:41
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#32
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2022
Posts: 88
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Re: A few questions about rival 32
Bienvenu a Graou....
I believe that with your good command of English and my limited command of French ( and even less 'Brezhoneg' ), plus goodwill, we will communicate quite well.
I live near Bath, England and sail mainly out of Plymouth. I have cruised all around the Breton coast during several decades AND I have sailed a mature Rival 34 during much of that time. I have also sailed that boat around Ireland and much of the Scottish West Coast, so I should be able to answer many of your questions.
The Rival 34 is essentially a Rival 32 with a longer rear end. As others have stated above, they both are reliable and easily-managed boats in strong weather. As with any elderly sailboat, you should survey the condition of the engine, the standing rigging, and especially the condition of the electrical wiring. Estimate costs for needed/urgent replacements.
The issue with the narrow chain-pipe on the foredeck is a common one. So also is the problem of the chain piling in a pyramid, chain links jamming both going up and going down - and the hatch in the forward bulkhead suggested above, giving access to the jammed chain, is one I had. It is a partial solution.
There are three solutions; the first is to remove the narrow ( navel ) pipe and fit a larger one. That requires a means of closing-off the pipe to prevent seawater entry. Again, an ordinary problem with routine solutions.
The next solution is to fit smaller diameter/higher strength chain, which is practicable today. HIgh strength chain of 6mm diameter is available. The problem there is cost. My boat had 10mm chain and 2 x 40m. lengths. That was too much weight, and I replaced one length of chain with 50m. rope.
The solution I used all the time when sailing inshore in 'shoal' or shallow waters - such as around Breton and the Scottish Coast - where I might need to anchor at short notice is to have 30m of chain laid down in a plastic fish or vegetable box ( hypermarche ) which is secured on the foredeck ready for use. One end led to the anchor on the bow roller; the other end to the (navel) pipe and down below to the rest of the chain AND the 50m. rope.
It is certainly possible to use yacht legs on a Rival 32/34. I know some Rivals had them, and it is also possible to retro-fit the necessary strengthening parts, both outside and inside the hull. I have done exactly that on a 9m. boat of similar shape. Here is some guidance, which I followed: Installing Yacht Legs – Cox Engineering
An English company manufactures and markets them: https://www.yachtlegs.co.uk/index.pl
It is likely you will find a similar resource in La France Profonde - or La Rochelle.
If I can help further, simply ask.
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27-10-2023, 14:16
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#33
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2022
Posts: 88
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Re: A few questions about rival 32
Edit to the above:
The Rivals benefit, in light breeze, from a modern fully-battened, loose-footed mainsail - which helps considerably.
Also consider fitting an inner stay ( top fitting <6% mast height to avoid need for running backstays / Selden ) which permits setting a strong wind staysail and/or a storm jib as well as the genoa ( un foc et le génois ).
Bon vents!
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28-10-2023, 02:52
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#34
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Swansea UK
Boat: Beneteau 423
Posts: 59
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Re: A few questions about rival 32
There are two blokes from Cardiff doing a YouTube channel called the Sailing Brothers. Their boat is a Rival34. It is a good channel, a very likeable pair who have learned and developed hugely during their journey. It might give you an idea what to expect. It seems a very robust and sea kindly boat and they seem to keep it going in light conditions.
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28-10-2023, 03:49
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#35
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2023
Location: France
Boat: Janneau Love love, 6,65m
Posts: 11
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Re: A few questions about rival 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aubrey1
I've a Rival 38.
I suspect a Rival 32 would cruise around 5 knots in a reasonable breeze.
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That's nice. What would you call a reasonable breeze ?
Thank you for these links. The "old man sailing "says about rival 32 that "they’re not at all good in light airs"... I'll definitely have to invest in good sails...
And, by the way, the boat has an engine from 1998, a Volvo Penta MD2030, 30HP. I don't intend to use very much the engine but still it is an important security component. I heard that theses engines have sometimes cooling problems... What do you think of it ? Do you think this can be ameliorated ?
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28-10-2023, 07:28
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#36
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Gloucester, MA USA
Boat: Newick Creative trimaran, 42'
Posts: 249
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Re: A few questions about rival 32
I sailed a few times on a friend's Rival 32. The boat was robust and had nice accomodation.
It did not sail well owing to a very strong weather helm which made it a poor sailer upwind. I noticed that the factory provided a smaller mainsail in an effort to reduce said weather helm, but it didn't help in a breeze.
The problem apparantly is in the hull design which makes the boat head into the wind when heeled over.
I would not want to own a sailboat that doesn't sail well. But that's just me.
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28-10-2023, 09:56
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#37
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2023
Location: France
Boat: Janneau Love love, 6,65m
Posts: 11
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Re: A few questions about rival 32
Thank you for all the links and advises you are giving me.
I think I am not going, at least at the beginning, to modify the mast or the boom... I will try it the way it is, and if needed rather buy new sails.
The boat has already got an inner stay with a staysail, which is okay I think. But I might try to get a bigger genoa and a newer mainsail...
Notoldbilbo, thank you for your advises. Concerning the anchor chain, to start with, I think the simpler advise (have an additional chain in a box) is a good idea !
The idea of replacing it by a smaller but stronger chain is also interesting, but I would be afraid that a lighter chain would also be less efficient to anchor the boat...
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28-10-2023, 11:25
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#38
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Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 6,554
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Re: A few questions about rival 32
Graou:
As I write, the wind at Lorient is souwesterly at 60 km/hour. To convert to knots, which is what sailors use, just divide by 2 — that's close enuff for practical purposes. Thus, the wind at Lorient is 30 knots. That is more than a novice would be comfortable with in a Rival 32, and a velocity that would require that the boat be reefed, probably to the second reef. She would NOT go to weather particularly well reefed that deeply.
A hard sou'wester at Lorient is also dangerous, particularly for a novice, because it is an ONshore wind on a rocky coast.
So let go back to basics :-)
If your boat doesn't already have one, make her a present of a clinometer. Just get a very simple one reading zero to twenty degrees or thereabouts. You can forget about more "scientific" instruments for the time being, they'd just get in the way of your learning to sail :-)
Most boats sail best when heeled 10 or 12 degrees. If the conditions are such that the boat heels consistently much beyond 15º, it's time to reduce sail! One of our friends mentioned that a Rival he had sailed had pronounced weather helm. That will inevitable happen in a boat with the Rival's LWL/BWL ratio (ratio of length to beam on the water line) if you let her heal too much. If you are interested, I can explain to you in a separate e-mail why that is. For now, till you get experience, just keep her heel below 15º and you'll be just fine.
If you let a boat such as the Rival 32 heel too far, the weather helm will become unmanageable, and you will loose control of the boat. The boat will then "gripe" which is very unpleasant and can be deadly dangerous in some circumstances. But the preventive measure is dead simple: Reduce sail if the boat consistently heels more than 15º! And don't be a "cowboy" :-)!
We can come back in a separate e-mail to the question of "balancing" the boat as you reduce sail.
I would think, but I have no experience with the boat, that you will, wearing full sail on a beam reach, be heeling the magic 12º when the wind is about 15 knots or 30 km/hr.
What I have given you here are some "bench marks". It'll be your job to test them for veracity and to modify them in light of your experience in the particular boat. But take notes of what you find. Doing that concentrates the mind wonderfully and nails down the lessons learned!
Get this basic stuff under your belt till you AND the boat are comfortable with it. Then we can begin to become more "scientific" about things, but one step at a time :-)!
Bonne chance!
TrentePieds
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30-10-2023, 13:58
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#39
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2023
Location: France
Boat: Janneau Love love, 6,65m
Posts: 11
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Re: A few questions about rival 32
Thank you for theses advices Trentepied.
It's interesting this info about the 15 degrees. I must say I had never really looked at the old clinometer which is inside the cabin of my actual little boat...
However I must say I never really felt the need for this : I usually see pretty naturally when the boat heels too much, you feel it wants to go up the wind to much, and you should reduce the sails... But it would be interesting to compare this feeling to the clinometer, and about the numbers you give.
Could you give me a definition of what means "weather helm" ? I can't figure out exactly...
As for the "scientific instruments", I still believe that a depht jauge IS a fery useful tool, and I will make sure I have one functioning on my new boat...
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30-10-2023, 15:09
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#40
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Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 6,554
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Re: A few questions about rival 32
"Weather helm" surely must have a French equivalent :-)
In my native Danish, the phrase is "luvgerrig" ("lusting for the wind"), so I have a hunch that in French there would be a phrase such as "ardent au vent".
The term comes from the fact that until recently boats were steered by tiller (rather than wheel), and that was true of ships, too, a long time ago. As the boat (ship) heels under the press of sail, it will tend to turn towards the wind, as you rightly say, and we counteract that tendency so we can sail a straight course by pulling the tiller a little to the side of the boat that the wind comes from.
In many nautical contexts "wind" and "weather" are interchangeable words, so when the boat requires you to hold the tiller ("barre" en Français?) a little to weather all the time in order to sail a straight course, we say the boat has "weather helm". If the boat requires a LOT of weather helm, we say she is "hard on the helm". "Helm" doesn't mean "tiller" ("barre") exactly. Nowadays it has a more general meaning such as "steering", though in the days of my forebears the vikings "helm" did indeed mean "tiller" or "steering oar".
In little boats such as ours, I feel no need for a depth sounder at all. I have a rule that I don't go where at the state of tide at the particular time the depth of water is less than 2 fathoms ("Brasses"). That's because for anchoring purposes I work in fathoms. Our charts are marked in metres with contour lines at 2 metres and 5 metres, these depths being at "lowest normal tide". As I come in, I watch the water very closely, but with 2M (1 fathom) of water at LNT I always have plenty of water for my 5-foot (2 fathoms) draft. I have an old-fashioned sounding lead which is useful when sneaking up on a spot to anchor, but I certainly don't need a depth sounder :-).
We can talk about why I work in fathoms if you are interested :-)
I take the retrofit GPS from my car with me aboard. It gives me latitude and longitude even when it has no roads to show me, and every 15 minutes or so, I read it and plot the reading on my old paper chart. That way I always know within a coupla miles where I am, because at my 6 knots maximum STW plus the tidal "set", I can't go more than a coupla miles in 15 minutes. Having just read the Lat/Long, I can remember the reading, and should I have to send a "Mayday" I already know my position without having to look it up :-).
I sail the old-fashioned way, because it gives me pleasure to eschew all the "labour saving" devices that make our lives to difficult and so unnecessarily expensive :-)!
Now you owe me some FRENCH sailing terminology :-)!!
TP
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