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07-01-2021, 08:11
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 120
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A few new boat purchase questions
Hi all,
Long time lurker here, so let me start by thanking everyone for the wealth of information on this forum.
I've been sailing for a few years here in the SF bay area, taking lessons and chartering through a club. Unfortunately, because of the pandemic the club appears to have gone out of business so we're now considering purchasing our own boat. I've found a boat that I'm interested in, and it's located down in San Diego. I have a few questions about the purchase process.
The boat has been in the water since ~August but is "new" in the sense that it has never been sold to anyone. It's been taken out sailing several times and shown to prospective buyers. If it were a car I would expect a discount for a "demo model" but I have no idea what's customary in the boat world. Any input on how much of a discount, if any, I should be targeting in my discussions with the dealer?
Second question, would you spend the money to do a survey on a "new" boat that's been in the water for a few months before purchasing?
My third question is about delivery. The dealer is indicating that they could either sail it up from SD or have it trucked up. If sailed up, I could join the delivery crew if I wanted to. From what I've read here and other places, sailing north from SD to SF in the winter doesn't sound like the most pleasant experience, but it seems like it would definitely be a great learning experience to spend several days aboard my new boat with a delivery crew. Of course, I have to balance this with the Covid risk of spending several days aboard a boat with strangers (gotta love the times we're living in). The other option (trucking it up) would be faster but more expensive, and I'm not sure if having to remove the rigging to truck it is a positive (chance to inspect and re-adjust everything on the hard before putting it back in the water) or a negative (unnecessary wear and tear). Any thoughts on the best way to have it delivered?
Thanks,
John
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07-01-2021, 08:56
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#2
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Boat: Retired Delivery Capt
Posts: 3,739
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Re: A few new boat purchase questions
As a delivery captain, I screen my customers. Explains why I am not doing many jobs!!
As an owner, I would buy the crew rapid tests. Have groceries delivered, buy them tests and depart.
__________________
"Whenever...it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people's hats off- then, I account it high time to get to sea..." Ishmael
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07-01-2021, 09:24
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Boston area
Boat: Sabre 402
Posts: 39
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Re: A few new boat purchase questions
Without knowing what kind of boat you're talking about, generically I expect that the entry price for a new (or like-new) cruising sailboat capable of sailing from San Diego to San Francisco with a crew is likely around $150k. A survey may be a PITA, but would have a more limited scope than a survey on an older boat, and will cost you less than $1k. Considering the possibility for something to have gone wrong between the factory, the delivery and the test sails, that sounds like cheap insurance to me.
Regarding a discount, everything is negotiable, but I would expect them to look for roughly the boat show price for a new boat. When you buy a new car from a dealer's showroom, you can negotiate for a few grand off the sticker, but you typically don't get used car pricing just because you're not the first guy who test drove it.
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07-01-2021, 09:58
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 25,767
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Re: A few new boat purchase questions
I'd probably have the survey, you never know if it's hit a rock or etc.
It's basically a new boat. Many boat dealers that have stock boats have them in the water. I think they are still considered "new". But give a look at the engine hour meter.
You'll just have to negotiate the best discount you can. If the boat /company is no longer in production then that makes a big negotiating help.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard
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07-01-2021, 10:04
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Somewhere in the Pacific Ocean
Boat: Catalina Morgan 45
Posts: 596
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Re: A few new boat purchase questions
1.) WRT purchase price...make an offer then negotiate with the broker. It's not a "used boat," but you can still negotiate.
2. Survey is going to depend on insurance company. In most cases in the US, an ins. co. may require a hull valuation survey. Ask your ins. co.
3. The trip north from SD to SF will be beating into the wind up the coast. Fortunately there are plenty of places to stop should the weather get really bad. Rough ride, but could be good learning experience.
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07-01-2021, 10:12
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#6
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Credit, Ontario or Bahamas
Boat: Benford 38 Fantail Cruiser
Posts: 7,579
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Re: A few new boat purchase questions
Yup, I'd definitley get a survey.
Stoopid Boat Builder Tricks
or this one about a linner that was never bonded to the hull.
Liner /Hull Bond Failure
__________________
If you're not laughing, you're not doin' it right.
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07-01-2021, 14:13
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Hawaii
Boat: Tartan T4400
Posts: 399
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Re: A few new boat purchase questions
I would recommend a survey not knowing the builder. The surveyor may find some things overlooked by the builder. This may put you in a stronger negotiating position. When we purchased new years ago we did use a surveyor and he found some issues that we would not have caught.
You can negotiate any thing. Sounds like there are extras on this boat (sail, instruments) than a stock boat out of the factory so it may be slightly higher than the boat price. What other options were added ad the factory to this boat
If truck to SF while the mast is out you could inspect the standing rigging and do any upgrades you like (windex, wind instruments LED tricolor ect).
If sailed up a good shake down sea trial for the boat but the is the risk of breaking something also.
There are pros and cons for sailing the bat north.
__________________
Aloha
Mike
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08-01-2021, 10:21
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Point Richmond, CA
Boat: Hunter 46
Posts: 777
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Re: A few new boat purchase questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPK
............Any input on how much of a discount, if any, I should be targeting in my discussions with the dealer?
Second question, would you spend the money to do a survey on a "new" boat that's been in the water for a few months before purchasing?
My third question is about delivery......Any thoughts on the best way to have it delivered?
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1. Discount on a new demo boat is a good question....look for comps through the broker is a start.
2. Survey - I would do a survey and your insurance company will likely require one anyway.
3. Delivery - I would compare the cost of a captain (and his crew plus expenses) to disassembly / reassembly / trucking it? If the captain cost is less than I would hire a captain and join them on the trip up. That is what I did on a 56 ft powerboat (trucking was no an option without remvoing the arch, sundeck and flybridge canvas) I purchased a number of years ago but did that trip in mid June but experienced significant wind waves from Morro Bay to Monterey during that leg and had to shelter in Monterey for a week until we. As long as you find a weather window via National Weather Forecast and NOAA you will be find to sail it up. ..You might find these threads helpful.
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...st-158045.html
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...co-220111.html
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...-194416-2.html
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08-01-2021, 10:23
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#9
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 29
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Re: A few new boat purchase questions
Why a new boat? You get so much more in a used boat. I bought a new boat
then spent a fortune in equipment. I still have my 1978 boat, however, if i was
to do it again, I'd go used!
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08-01-2021, 10:40
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#10
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Portland Oregon
Boat: BCC28 and a traditional Dutch sailing barge
Posts: 134
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Re: A few new boat purchase questions
My friend who delivered a boat from LA to SF for me said that they wait for a "proper" weather window, a southern wind. Before a storm you get a nice southern wind that they like. He also would motor a lot because he said it was less "wear and tear" on the boat. So, I would say you need to talk to some delivery skippers. It can be a tough passage, but I personally love winter sailing on the coast.
I would think it would be tough to do a sea trial in San Diego because the weather is so mild. You might want to talk to sailors in SF to see what they think of your boat. If the boat handles SF bay well, it can handle the ocean well. If you get a boat that can't handle a ebb tide chop, then you will not want to sail her much in the bay.
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08-01-2021, 10:43
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#11
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 29
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Re: A few new boat purchase questions
Lots of nice protected anchorages between SD and Bodega Bay where I'm at.
I'm 73 and have done this trip many times. You seem to hit it lousy at some
point along but there is always a place to set in for awhile. Instead of hiring
capt and crew, take a buddy or two and enjoy the experience. Everyday is
different a long the coast so when you do it by your self it won't be the same.
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08-01-2021, 10:59
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#12
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: San Leon, Texas
Boat: Knysna 440 once I get my new dock and the canal gets dredged
Posts: 914
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Re: A few new boat purchase questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPK
Hi all,
Long time lurker here, so let me start by thanking everyone for the wealth of information on this forum.
I've been sailing for a few years here in the SF bay area, taking lessons and chartering through a club. Unfortunately, because of the pandemic the club appears to have gone out of business so we're now considering purchasing our own boat. I've found a boat that I'm interested in, and it's located down in San Diego. I have a few questions about the purchase process.
The boat has been in the water since ~August but is "new" in the sense that it has never been sold to anyone. It's been taken out sailing several times and shown to prospective buyers. If it were a car I would expect a discount for a "demo model" but I have no idea what's customary in the boat world. Any input on how much of a discount, if any, I should be targeting in my discussions with the dealer?
Second question, would you spend the money to do a survey on a "new" boat that's been in the water for a few months before purchasing?
My third question is about delivery. The dealer is indicating that they could either sail it up from SD or have it trucked up. If sailed up, I could join the delivery crew if I wanted to. From what I've read here and other places, sailing north from SD to SF in the winter doesn't sound like the most pleasant experience, but it seems like it would definitely be a great learning experience to spend several days aboard my new boat with a delivery crew. Of course, I have to balance this with the Covid risk of spending several days aboard a boat with strangers (gotta love the times we're living in). The other option (trucking it up) would be faster but more expensive, and I'm not sure if having to remove the rigging to truck it is a positive (chance to inspect and re-adjust everything on the hard before putting it back in the water) or a negative (unnecessary wear and tear). Any thoughts on the best way to have it delivered?
Thanks,
John
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Exactly what kind of boat is this? Even a new boat can have flaws so a survey would be a good idea but it'll mean a haul out as the boat is in the water currently. Whether or not you'd sail it north would depend on the type of boat and how it's equipped. Due to the southerly current and northerly winds, the outside route might make more sense - at least you'd beat most of the current. But you'd want a larger boat for that and probably a water maker (which are often not standard equipment on new boats). A delivery captain with one crew and you is not going to be free but probably less than trucking it. As you've been sailing for awhile you already know how to tack but this would be a good chance for you to really learn the boat prior to being on your own. If this boat is less than 30', I'd just truck it and be done. As to the price reduction, all you can do is make a reasonable offer and hope for the best much like a used boat purchase. As I'm sure you're aware, it's considered a seller's market here on the West Coast at the moment so I wouldn't get too agressive with that offer.
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08-01-2021, 11:00
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#13
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 475
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Re: A few new boat purchase questions
I am not sure you can expect a discount on a new boat just because she is in the water and being demoed to potential buyers. That is a common practice of many new-boat dealers, they first receive a boat and then they sell her. This is because there is typically a long lag time from when a boat is ordered to when the boat is delivered, and also many buyers do not buy a boat without "seeing" her, it is just in the nature of boat purchasing.
What typically happens, I think, is that the new boats that a dealer has available get sold as is, often the pricing is part of a "package" deal with a lot of other equipment included; sometimes, the "package" pricing benefits of other discounts like boat-show specials, or the price is "frozen" to the pricing of when the boat was delivered (so, for example, it does not include price increases of that type of boat that may have happened after delivery, so the boat is actually cheaper than ordering one from the factory).
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08-01-2021, 11:20
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#14
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 10,206
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Re: A few new boat purchase questions
You may consider making closing of the purchase contingent on delivery to your location.
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08-01-2021, 11:32
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#15
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 120
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Re: A few new boat purchase questions
Thanks, everyone! Lots of great insights. Let me address a few of the questions. The boat is a Hanse 418, nicely configured but set up as a daysailer (i.e., no generator, water maker, solar, etc.), which is fine as this is how we plan to use her. I'm not sure, though, if not having these impacts the ability to sail up from SD to SF.
As for me, I was a member of OCSC for several years but they appear to have gone out of business now. I've looked into possibly joining another club, but it's always been our plan to buy our own boat at some point so perhaps this is the right time. All my sailing experience is daytime sailing in the SF bay, so I'm not comfortable sailing a boat up from SD to SF by myself without a delivery skipper.
Everyone's insights on pricing are helpful. Having never bought a boat before, I wasn't sure if this was more akin to a car that a few people have test-driven or a car that the dealer has been driving around for a few months. I'd expect very different pricing in those two scenarios, but it appears that this is closer to the former. It sounds like a survey is the smart thing to do, and possibly even required by the insurance company.
Edit: FabioC, I just saw your post and I think that this is exactly what the situation is here. The dealer bought the boat and has shown it to prospective buyers, some of whom have then gone off and placed their own custom orders (~11 month lead-time). The boat offer sheet I was shown shows "early bird pricing" on the various optional packages so it's reflective of the available pricing at the time the dealer bought the boat.
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