A cruiser you can race?

[CaptThunder]

Originally Posted by DDabs

1987 Beneteau First 435 sailboat for sale in South Carolina

I love that boat and the price is right....but, the draft is too deep at almost 7 feet. Thanks for sending that thou.

[CaptThunder]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Thunder, your criteria are, to some degree, self contradictory. That is, short mast, shallow draft, good pointing and overall good performance. Not a likely combination IMO.

So, I'd think that you need to prioritize your criteria a bit. Is the low air draft a truly limiting factor? Is there a bridge (or two) that you s imply must get under? Same with draft. Once you set some numbers to those criteria, you can rule out any design that fails the test. Then you get to the performance issue, and here I suggest that you download a set of PHRF ratings. These, while not perfect, give you a fairly objective value for all around performance, and will allow you to compare the speediness of different designs. I thinkk you will find some big differences between some of your examples, for instance The Beneteau 38 rates 102 seconds/mile, the Bene First 40 36 s/m and the Cabo rico 38 177 s/m. This is a huge difference in performance... huge!

So, I reckon that you have a lot of head scratching and re-thinking to do, and that it will be difficult to find a boat that meets all measures, especially when you throw a somewhat limited budget into the mix. When you come up with some specific choices, there are plenty of folks here who will give opinions about them. Some of those may be accurate and useful, some will be ill-educated drivel, but with some luck, you should be able to sort out the difference!

Good luck... I think your goals are reasonable and appropriate... just difficult to attain!

Jim

I understand. Regarding the self contradictory aspect....there are some things that I can work with and some that are fixed requirements. I can accept a lesser ability to point...but I cannot make the bridges on the ICW any higher or the water any deeper. I have to make compromises to come out with the best possible result.

I appreciate what you are saying about the difference in performance of the boats I mentioned. When I say "performance" I mean it in two ways.....racing performance under PHRF as well as actual performance. I would take a cruising boat that will sail to her rating and be competitive in PHRF races, over a boat that is a faster in real terms.

Perhaps I should have described performance as PHRF performance without being a dog in actual performance terms. Thanks for pointing out the rating information.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Take a look at the boats on the PHRF rating list. And then compare their respective pro's & con's to your criteria.
The ratings for the boats are calculated based on the average speed of a type of vessel, over a fairly universal/all encompassing set of race courses. So that a boat rating 120 is 30sec/mile faster than one which rates 150.
PHRF New England - Handicapping - Base Handicaps

IMO, anything with a rating of 100 or less will be more than plenty fast (akin to Cal 40's which still race competitively), if not overloaded. And a 150 rater's no dog. For example, a Ranger 33, which is still faster than most traditional cruisers under 50'.
Then, once you get down, under 50 or so, you're generally looking at racing boats. Which can work for cruising, though you'll likely need to do some mod's to them, & or adding cruising gear. As well as watch how much weight you add. But if you want to go fast, then it's worth it.

And if you're really curious about a boat's speed potential, there are online databases which contain the Polars for hundreds of boats. Which will tell you exactly how fast a boat will be in a given wind strength, at wind angle X.
Thus making it easy to compare their speeds.

And, ditto on what's already been said.

PS: You can peruse the below list/thread over on Sailing Anarchy Forums, where there are also a few similar threads. Though it's far from comprehensive.
http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/ind...%22+that+surfs

[Paul L]

Shoal draft J/37 or J/40.

[mikemenza]

May be an osy54cb in TN just north of the TenTom.. There may be an H54 around Annapolis.. both seemed reasonably well cared for.. But I haven't seen them.. You did say fast cruiser, both @50k Saw a Phillipian Glass racer in Georgia, 42ft flat deck for 20k.. looked useable for a racer. There's a Nelson/Marek 45 CC on the west coast of florida for 35k which is big fast boat and a nice interior. There are also a couple aft cockpit N/M around 65k or so.. check sailboatlistings or yachtworld or craigslist in the places that have sailboats..

[Latchdaddy]

CptThunder. I am looking for a E32 here locally. How do you like your boat? Details please and why do you think it would be too small? Most of the time will be in its large cockpit. If you were selling it how much would you ask? Good luck in your search.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[CaptThunder]

Originally Posted by Latchdaddy

CptThunder. I am looking for a E32 here locally. How do you like your boat? Details please and why do you think it would be too small? Most of the time will be in its large cockpit. If you were selling it how much would you ask? Good luck in your search.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

I absolutely love the E32-3 and may decide to keep her after all the research. The racing I am thinking of would be from St Pete to Cuba and St Pete to Mexico. Those races would require larger crew than I think would be comfortable on the E32-3 for a few days of non stop sailing.

I sailed her to Key West and back from Treasure Island during the Bone Island reggatta last year. There was heavy weather that had a squall line of over 40 kts. The E32-3 took solid water across the foredeck but kept right on moving. It is a solid boat with decent performance and well designed.

A guy sailed one single handed from LA to Hawaii and back:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28TAdDu5L6U

[DDabs]

Dude idk where you are in FL but sailing out of st pete is fine with a 7 ft. draft...

[CaptThunder]

Originally Posted by DDabs

Dude idk where you are in FL but sailing out of st pete is fine with a 7 ft. draft...

If you sail from St Pete out the bay into the gulf and stay offshore you would be OK. If you want to gunkhole, no way will 7 feet work. I hit the bottom once in the middle of Sarasota Pass with a 5 foot keel.

I have sailed these waters since the 70's and enjoy the gunkhole anchorages.

[sandy stone]

1986 Beneteau First 405 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

This is a larger version of my boat, which I think sails very well and is offshore capable. A shoal draft 405 rates around 100, so no slouch.

[CaptThunder]

Originally Posted by sandy stone

1986 Beneteau First 405 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

This is a larger version of my boat, which I think sails very well and is offshore capable. A shoal draft 405 rates around 100, so no slouch.

Thanks for that link Sandy. Do you know the last year that the "first" models were made? Did any of them have sugar scoop sterns that you can walk through? I am not as spry as I once was and would enjoy an easy entry to my dinghy.

[PortClydeMe]

Originally Posted by CaptThunder

I currently own an Ericson 32-3 which I regard as a great boat. The E32-3 is however a bit small for long distance open water races like the St Petersburg to Havana race. I am getting older and softer now, so I am considering stepping up to a boat that is more comfortable for long distance sailing. My next boat should be more of a cruising boat, but one that will not cause people to point at me and laugh when I cross the finish line....or worse, DNF because I could not make it to the line within the time limits.


Your suggestions would be appreciated.

Interesting. Your advancing years, yacht specs, and location quickly brought to mind Dr. Stanley V. Paris and his Lyman-Morse (Thomaston, Maine)-built "Kiwi Spirit", a Farr-designed cruiser racer. Maybe much more money than you wish to spend, yet a cool boat, and of course, built in the Great State of Maine.

Google his name, and you can probably get an audience with him in St. Augustine or Bermuda. That is, if he's not busy trying to break a solo circumnavigation record.

Lyman-Morse. Just up the road from my house. Cool stuff.

Kiwi Spirit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNwETZyDenw

Lyman-Morse: Lyman-Morse Boatbuilding - Custom Maine Boat Builder - Thomaston, Maine

[DDabs]

NIGHTWIND 35 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by CaptThunder

I understand. Regarding the self contradictory aspect....there are some things that I can work with and some that are fixed requirements. I can accept a lesser ability to point...but I cannot make the bridges on the ICW any higher or the water any deeper. I have to make compromises to come out with the best possible result.

I appreciate what you are saying about the difference in performance of the boats I mentioned. When I say "performance" I mean it in two ways.....racing performance under PHRF as well as actual performance. I would take a cruising boat that will sail to her rating and be competitive in PHRF races, over a boat that is a faster in real terms.

Perhaps I should have described performance as PHRF performance without being a dog in actual performance terms. Thanks for pointing out the rating information.

G'Day again, Thunder,

From this and a couple of your other later posts, I can see that you are far more clued up than my first impression... sorry about that!

And of course, the beauty of PHRF is that you can successfully race damn near anything, and have fun at other times with the same boat.

I was quite successful doing single hand racing years ago under PHRF ratings. For me, I think the secret was having a boat that could be sailed up to near her full rating speed without crew weight ballast. I was in a Yankee-30, already fairly dated in her design in the early 80s. Competitors in more modern boats, such as Olsen 30s were not so lucky. I was able to match their boat speed on most points of sail, especially to windward in a bit of breeze (this was in the ocean off SF, and there was usually good wind), and blew them away when the ratings were applied. Sure could not do that with full crews!

So my point is to consider candidate boats both with your racing crew and with (my assumption here) your much smaller cruising crew: will the boat do well in both situations?

I'm not a split rig fan for the most part, but with your draft and air draft limitations, a ketch rig might allow a bit bigger vessel to fit under and over the obstacles!

Anyhow, enjoy the search!

Jim

[Adelie]

PEARSON 40