A bit more boat help please.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by fireant

...
What is the reason for such a large brace at the mast inside the boat? only on this model?...

The large metal brace in the salon is part of the structure to support the chain plates and shrouds. This boat does not have a full width bulkhead where the chain plates attach.

It looks kind'a "industrial" to me, typical of the stuff sometimes done on race boats where the owner will put up with anything if it makes the boat faster or stronger.

[TrentePieds]

fireant:

Yes, again wingsail has it right. However, I think - tho I don't know for sure - that the "industrial looking" brace is original, rather than a retrofit.

Look at the arrangement plan on SailboatData which I think you already quoted. You will see that the mast is stepped on the keel and that there are no bulkheads immediately next to the mast. Because this boat was designed for performance, and to be sailed by people who just don't quit when the weather comes up, Bruce King stepped the mast on the keel rather than on the deck as is done in cruising (Winnebago) boats.

The force that drives the boat forward in 30 knots of wind vectors inter alia into a compression force that drives the mast downward and has a magnitude of some tons. It would drive the mast through an unsupported deck if that is where it were stepped. So therefore you take the heel of the mast down to the keel.

However, this enormous force has to be vectored into the hull somehow, and part of this vectoring means that a force measured tons is pulling upwards on the shrouds. This force is, in turn, vectored into the hull at deck level via the chainplates and deck structure. This horizontal component of the force will attempt to squish the hull at that level. The bracing you ask about is there to absorb and to distribute this horizontal force.

The way I would look at this is that the brace being there is a sign that this boat will sail and handle far better in heavy weather than you would expect a Catalina 30 and many other cruising boats to do.

In regard to tiller steering, that, IMO, is a boon. There is no justification for wheel steering in boats until the forces required to lay the helm over become so large that they cannot be applied without using some sort of gearing. Gearing is what wheel steering is all about. Because it's the way steering is done in cars, "new sailors" think that it must be the way things should be done in boats. And that is why "the market" demands it and builders supply it. Wheel steering is certainly not required in a well designed 8 ton boat - which is what the Ericson 37 is :-)

Let's know how you get on :-)

TP

[fireant]

The brace seem to be part of the original boat build. The few pic I seen of the boat all had the brace.
I can just see my self out cold after running into the brace.
Just remembered the broker mentioned that there are some spider cracks at some fitting on the deck.
How do you check how extensive / deep the damage is ?
cant wait for Saturday to check the boat out now.

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "I can just see my self out cold after running into the brace"

Well, yes :-) But every boat has places where you need to be aware of "stuff" that can knock you cold. You learn where they are, and then you learn to deal them. I wouldn't let a small thing like that get in the way of getting a very, very well designed and performing boat for a very modest dollar if the boat is otherwise sound.

Quote: "...there are some spider cracks at some fitting on the deck..."

Again, we are talking about a forty year old boat of superior design available for a pittance, As I said before there are forces impinging on the hull far greater than landsmen expect. Over four decades the flexing that occurs as a result of these forces where they impact things that are bolted to the fibreglass hull of the boat, is bound to make the immediately surrounding gel-coat crack, typically as "spider cracks".

The back story is this: Gel coal is brittle but impervious to water. The resin used for the "layup" is flexible (to some small degree) but is NOT impervious to water. In consequence the layup is not (normally) damaged by the flexing because it is very little (dimensionally), although it is enough to crack (or "craze") the brittle gel coat. The gelcoat is there to protect the layup.

If the crazing (the spider cracks) aren't bad enough to let water into the layup, the boat will be none the worse for having them. IF the lay-up has been damaged locally it can be repaired. At what cost will obviously depend on the extent of the damage.

Perhaps you could let us see some photos of any spider cracks that concern you, including the hardware that may have induced them. Then we'll be in a better position to judge whether they are serious, and what a repair may entail.

You can check for water intrusion by using a moisture meter. If I recall, Boatpoker talked about that in one of his papers, though I'm not sure it was in "Surveying 101".

Just go slow. Let us see some pictures, Then we can talk again and suggest where you need to go next.

TP

[Don C L]

I suspect the issues for you on this one to check, since the price seems good, is, as usual, engine, rigging and sails in that order. Spider cracks are the least to worry about. The industrial braces can be covered with foam and nautical fabric or something, not important. It's all about the engine IMO.
I like this one, if all checks out, can I get a ride?

[fireant]

Don you would be more then welcome to come.
I would actually apricate if you do come. Your advice would be very welcome.
Crossing my fingers that it would be a good boat.
It was for sale for a very long time.

[LittleWing77]

The Ericson, indeed, is a much better boat, Fireant. However! As a new sailor, if you've never used a tiller that will be difficult. As a dinghy sailor, I love a tiller and prefer them. As TP says, there really is no reason for wheels on sailboats - except for the fact that a wheel will drive the boat like a car. So one less thing for a new sailor to learn.

That interior brace is wild. Never seen anything like it. Looks like it could take one's head off if you were thrown into it....

I guess the Cherubini was a wash?

LittleWing77

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by fireant

...It was for sale for a very long time...

Fireant, I can tell you why that Ericson 37 might have been for sale for a very long time.

Ma and Pa Cruiser come down the dock to look at the boat. They get about three slips away from it and Pa sees the tiller and all the big winches. He puts out his arm and stops Ma. He says, " That boat ain't for us Ma." and they go no further.

[fireant]

littleWing, That Cherubini never made it to LA area, got stuck in bad weather up north and was sold there.
That big brace seems to be unique to the 37 only. No other model has it.

Wingssail, in the pics I counted 10 winches. Most boats I looked at had 4 winches, the most was 6.

[TrentePieds]

Yes, 10 winches can look a little overwhelming, but take heart :-)

They are there because if the boat in its youth was sailed to its full potential by a full crew of gung-ho deck gorillas, the winches would all have been called for and the gorillas woulda had a lot of fun. The fact that they are there doesn't mean that they are all required in all circumstances, let alone in the sort of sailing I expect you will be doing for a few years. Winches are damnably expensive to buy, but these ones are included in the price :-). I should say also that winches are really easy to maintain, so their being there will do no harm.

I thank LittleWing for backing me up in regard to the tiller, but I will ever so gently gainsay her in regard to her statement that as a novice you will find its use difficult. Quite the contrary IMO. The boat will in NO WAY feel like a car when you are helming, so your brain won't even make any such association, and you will never miss the wheel. Tiller steering is absolutely instinctive.

To look into the future a bit: What I would recommend is that you should be conscious from your first day aboard that in 12 or 15 knots of wind, that rig will generate forces that will be frightening to a novice if he carries full sail. So don't start out wearing the 130% genny. Just wear a working jib, say 75% or 85% of the foretriangle. You might also like to take in one reef on the main. because the boat will then balance just lovely with just the tiniest bit of weather helm and a slight shaking of the tiller that will tell you that she's alive and happy. If you wear full sail in 15 knots of wind before you get used to her, you'll scare yourself silly :-)

A rule I've always laid before my students when I was an instructor is that by the time the boat (any boat) heels 15º (look at your clinometer), it's time to reduce sail. So that should be your rule also to begin with. You can gradually work up from there, but remember that for cruising 15º is good enough. It's prolly at that degree of heel that she sails best because that was characteristic for boats of her particular design idiom. When racing, there are times when for one reason or another you drive your lee rail under, but that's never necessary or desirable when cruising.

TP

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by fireant

littleWing, That Cherubini never made it to LA area, got stuck in bad weather up north and was sold there.
That big brace seems to be unique to the 37 only. No other model has it.

Wingssail, in the pics I counted 10 winches. Most boats I looked at had 4 winches, the most was 6.

No, I count 12. When this boat was built serious racing boats had a winch for every line. No sheet stoppers and no self tailers. It's a little hard for me to see exactly how they were used but probably:

• Genoa winches (x2) Big ones inside the cockpit
• Spinnaker guy winches (x2) on coaming.
• Spinnaker sheet winches (x2) next to companionway
• Halyard winches (x3 or x4) near mast
• Other winches forward, (x2 or x3) foreguy, pole lift, etc

How these guys actually used the winches could be quite different, (which winches for which job). Find an old salt who raced 50 years ago to help you figure it out, or just experiment.

They also probably had about 1 dozen winch handles stuck around in pockets.

There apparently is no winch for the mainsheet, it is block and tackle, or possibly you could run a double ended mainsheet through those two stand up blocks on the cabin top and back to the winches by the hatch. For reefing you use whatever suits you and is available.

Modern boats get by with much fewer winches, and smaller ones, by using sheet stoppers and are usually under winched.

My boat had 14 (we have running backstays) but I removed six to save weight.

These winches look like Barient. Some parts are still available from Arco (Hutton-Arco winches) in Australia who bought everything they could when Barient went out of business.

These winches are your friends, with these winches you can do anything.

Hydraulics:

This boat has a Sterns Hydraulic package, originally with three cylinders, of which I see only the backstay cylinder. Most hydraulic shops can service these things if you take the stuff to them.

[dfelsent]

Wow looks like a lot of boat for the buck. You are getting great advice here I think.
My boat has a metal deck beam just aft of the mainmast, so perhaps not that unusual.
Although Moonbeam has headroom to spare so the beam is not a hazard.
Moonbeam is a ketch. Designed for cruising in 1972. 11 winches. 3 for the mizzen, so 8 for the main and fore triangle.
10 or 12 for that vintage is not unusual.
The extra hydraulic circuits could have been for the vang and (possibly?) forestay.
With that you could have serious control over mast rake and bend and forestay tension.
A racer thing.

[fireant]

I need explaining about the hydraulics .How they are supposed to work? where the pressure coming from to make them work.
There is so much to learn.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by fireant

I need explaining about the hydraulics .How they are supposed to work? where the pressure coming from to make them work.
There is so much to learn.

Yes, about sailing there is always a lot one can learn. No matter how much you know there is always more to learn. It's not like riding a jet ski, 15 seconds and you know it all. So when you take up sailing you open yourself to a lifetime of learning more and more.

Hydraulics

The hydraulic system for that boat consists of a hand operated pump and three cylinders (I see the backstay, where the others are is a mystery to be solved by following hoses).

You can see the stub of the pump lever on the lower rt of the square black panel. There will be a short tubular handle which slips over the stub allowing you to operate the pump.

Behind the panel there is a reservoir to hold about 1 qt of hydraulic oil or jack oil and hoses running to the cylinders. The reservoir is filled by taking out a screw in the top.

You will see three gauges (which look quite good in the picture, usually they are yellow and clouded) and six knobs.

For each cylinder on the boat there is a gauge to show what pressure is on it and one knob to open the hose from the pump to the cylinder and one knob to open the hose back to the reservoir. Normally all six knobs are closed, meaning turned snugly to the clockwise.

To pump up a hydraulic cylinder, the backstay for example, you open the lower knob slightly (about a half a turn) and pump on the handle. In the case of the backstay it will put more pressure on the backstay pulling the top of the mast back and also tightening the headstay. After you achieve the pressure you want you close the knob. To release pressure you open the top knob.

Normally you leave only a little pressure on the backstay and other cylinders unless you are sailing. Usually more wind it’s a good idea to put on more pressure. Typically on a backstay with that system you would use between 1500lbs and 2500lbs, 4000lbs is probably max. Consider that with a 2” cylinder your 4000lbs/sq inch results in a load on the backstay wire of 8000lbs!

On many boats of this age the hydraulics will have fallen into disrepair or even have been removed but they are good to have, and the backstay is particularly useful.

Whatever boat you buy there will be things about it which you don't know or understand. There are lots of knowledgeable and helpful people on the forum. You can use us as your tech support.

[Perfusser]

Originally Posted by Djarraluda

Yes, engine location was the drawback in my view.

I have a Tasman 26, which also has the engine under the V Birth. Whilst it does get challenging getting to the engine initially, once there you have cleared the cushions sails, boards etc., you have unencumbered access to everything. This makes it very easy to work on.
cheers
Craig