'79 Formosa Ketch: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly?

[Captain Salty]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

You may find head clearance under a bimini to be an issue on many boats. Not sure if the 447 is any more of an issue than others. I'm 5-9 and barely was able to stand on most my boats. But I only stand when docking or going thru hazards anyway. Actually, that's the only time I steer at all! :>)
I suppose a Passport 47 could be in the running, but not a ton of them around.

Head clearance and also the cockpit was just too small. My wife and I like a large open cockpit when we're sailing with others, and the Norseman doesn't seem to be configured for a lot of people topsides.

[Captain Salty]

Originally Posted by zeehag

some of us actually LOVE our pos tubs that cannot sail in light air but do excellent work in trade winds.
any poorly maintained boat will die in short time.
formosa 51 is a world CRUISER, not performance cruiser and have crappy light air and windward coastal racing ability. isnt what they were designed to do. they are comfortable sailing heavier weather an d trade winds. funny how those sluggish fat bottomed barge like poor windward sailing tubs are.

Why is there so much hate for the Formosa 51? My friend who has sailed for decades including some ocean crossings is telling me that the Formosa 51 is a tub and sails slowly (which I am gathering). I countered that my wife and I are looking for a very spacious, comfortable boat to cruise on. We race on the San Francisco Bay and the California coast, and now it's time for a boat where we can lazily cruise and sip our wine and enjoy other people's company.

I am going to see another Formosa 51 (1974 vintage) in a few weeks that is in excellent shape. So I've two to get on board int he next few weeks and see how I feel on the boat. Hopefully I'll be able to take one of them out with the owner and see how she sails.

So still searching for the perfect boat (or as close as we'll ever get).

[Captain Salty]

Originally Posted by Capt. Arnaud

The pictures where not recent pics, so I made it clear that I was a little bit less than happy with the broker wasting our time and I'm happy to announce that I'm not the new owner of that submarine

The first picture is from the broker, the rest is the reality.

Holy In-Mast furler, Batman! Did the broker ever set foot on that boat? How can you even think of selling a boat with all that black crap around the motor?

[zeehag]

Originally Posted by Captain Salty

Why is there so much hate for the Formosa 51? My friend who has sailed for decades including some ocean crossings is telling me that the Formosa 51 is a tub and sails slowly (which I am gathering). I countered that my wife and I are looking for a very spacious, comfortable boat to cruise on. We race on the San Francisco Bay and the California coast, and now it's time for a boat where we can lazily cruise and sip our wine and enjoy other people's company.

I am going to see another Formosa 51 (1974 vintage) in a few weeks that is in excellent shape. So I've two to get on board int he next few weeks and see how I feel on the boat. Hopefully I'll be able to take one of them out with the owner and see how she sails.

So still searching for the perfect boat (or as close as we'll ever get).

i adore formosas. i understand the reasons for the performance and the rationale behind heavy. and ye cannot beat the looks.
would love a 51. have a 41. love it.

wood boats talk to you. these are as close to a wood boat as i would want to cruise., i love wood boats, learned on wood boat.
are you a member yet of yahoo group leaky teaky yacht club?? much good info there. 41s and 51s

[curtis742]

I see these leaky teaky boats on you tube surviving 60 knot gales all the time, wind blowing the tops off of waves 30-40 foot tall. I also see alot of these performance boats with their fancy fin keels ripped off by lesser conditions, rudders torn off, masts snapped. Personally I would much rather be caught in a storm in an old heavy boat than floating in a life raft hoping someone finds me and my keel-less wonder . From the looks of things the crappy built boats are the modern paper thin hulled speedsters everyone is raving about which would appear to be cheaply built due to the lack of fiberglass. There are formulas which give hull speed and hold true. Many would have you believe a 38 foot boat is faster than a 50 ft boat. Applying the math there is no possible way. I have seen a Vagabond 47 walk off and leave a fleet of 30 something boats which later that night were ducking into sheltered water when the wind hit 30 knots as a norther passed. The Vagabond seemed in her element under those conditions. I have also witnessed the revered catamarans with their masts stuck in the bottom of the bay from an errant gust of wind. These over priced cheap beer can boats are dangerous and get people killed. Sure they look good but at what cost when you can feel the hull flex when a moderate wave hits the beam.Sailboats don't look very sexy upside down. How many modern boats will survive a knock down? Most cleats would pull out of the deck of these lightweight, cheaply built modern boats if a drogue was deployed. God forbid you should hit any submerged hazard at sea in one of these featherweight boats. Just saying. If only million dollar boats were available the oceans would be very uncrowded.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by curtis742

I see these leaky teaky boats on you tube surviving 60 knot gales all the time, wind blowing the tops off of waves 30-40 foot tall. I also see alot of these performance boats with their fancy fin keels ripped off by lesser conditions, rudders torn off, masts snapped. Personally I would much rather be caught in a storm in an old heavy boat than floating in a life raft hoping someone finds me and my keel-less wonder . From the looks of things the crappy built boats are the modern paper thin hulled speedsters everyone is raving about which would appear to be cheaply built due to the lack of fiberglass. There are formulas which give hull speed and hold true. Many would have you believe a 38 foot boat is faster than a 50 ft boat. Applying the math there is no possible way. I have seen a Vagabond 47 walk off and leave a fleet of 30 something boats which later that night were ducking into sheltered water when the wind hit 30 knots as a norther passed. The Vagabond seemed in her element under those conditions. I have also witnessed the revered catamarans with their masts stuck in the bottom of the bay from an errant gust of wind. These over priced cheap beer can boats are dangerous and get people killed. Sure they look good but at what cost when you can feel the hull flex when a moderate wave hits the beam.Sailboats don't look very sexy upside down. How many modern boats will survive a knock down? Most cleats would pull out of the deck of these lightweight, cheaply built modern boats if a drogue was deployed. God forbid you should hit any submerged hazard at sea in one of these featherweight boats. Just saying. If only million dollar boats were available the oceans would be very uncrowded.

All I can say is that you have a very fertile imagination, and the ability to extrapolate from very rare incidents to "see all the time".

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but you should stick to demonstrable fact to support them, not "I also see alot of these performance boats with their fancy fin keels ripped off by lesser conditions, rudders torn off, masts snapped.".

Jim

[curtis742]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

All I can say is that you have a very fertile imagination, and the ability to extrapolate from very rare incidents to "see all the time".

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but you should stick to demonstrable fact to support them, not "I also see alot of these performance boats with their fancy fin keels ripped off by lesser conditions, rudders torn off, masts snapped.".

Jim

Thanks for the chuckle.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by curtis742

Thanks for the chuckle.

I'm curious: at which part were you laughing?

Jim

[Vino the Dog]

Looking for a little specialized information about Garden designed Taiwan boats, I read this whole threads and found it accurately represents the opinionated beliefs of lots of people with no experience and a few who obviously do have experience with these boats. Both sides of the quality and sailing ability of them are partially accurate and partially unadulterated bovine excrement passed on through popular opinion promoted by fans and manufacturers of modern production boats.

The quality of construction issue is both right and wrong. Formosa built whatever was ordered and the quality depended on contract terms (price mostly) and project supervision. The CT yard founded in 1972 by one of the brothers of the Chen family who started Formosa Boat Builders some time in the 40s or 50s long before they are reported to have been, had a reputation for excellent quality and some of the Formosa 41s as well. Both yards were operated by brothers and contracted with other yards for some of the work. There were estimated between 100-200 boat yards in Taiwan during the 70s.

What was callled the Overseas 41was a Formosa 41 ordered by a California importer who put their brand on the sales literature. There was no Overseas boat yard in Taiwan. Island Trader is another importer who re branded Formosa, CT, and Chung Hua boats as Island Traders by adding their plaque and screwing their name over the original manufacturers name on the braeker panel. Taiwan was a free-for-all of boat building, import scams including boat building to cover drug smuggling, get rich schemes, and who know what all.

The CT/Formosa design came from the original Sea Wolf designed by Garden for Bill Hardin who was one of the world’s top experts in fiberglass boat building in the 50s & 60s. Hardin moved his manufacture from Japan to Taiwan in 1960, taking the Sea Wolf molds with him. He partnered with the Chen family to begin building both wood and fiberglass versions of the Sea Wolf before founding his own yard, Hardin International.

What you have in CT & Formosa boats and a long line of copies and derivatives is three top experts, Garden design, Hardin production set up and early supervision, and the Chen family known as master boat builders for a very long time. They could and did build everything from some of the finest and most sea worthy small voyaging boats to cheap garbage ordered by importers and farmed out to who knows where.

As for performance, they were not built for racing, they were built to cross oceans in safety and comfort. The original Garden design was based on Pacific Northwest sealing schooners and lumber haulers of the 1800s to navigate the Bearing sea and come back with a boat full of cargo. They are little cargo boats designed for trade wind sailing and heavy water. As for durability, these are 40+ year old boats many of which have been sailed hard and poorly maintained. Today, there is a whole group and growing who search for these boats, even in totally derelict condition to restore or customize them and I bet there will still be lots of them on the seas after most of the modern production boats lie crumpled in the weeds.

[Terra Nova]

VD--posting in bold letters does not help make these boats better than they actually are.

[Vino the Dog]

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

VD--posting in bold letters does not help make these boats better than they actually are.

Nor does ignorance, misinformation, or criticizing such irrelevant things as the font of a post.

[zeehag]

so much nit picking over nothing. wow.. font wars again.
itis a shame folks knowing not much about these boats diss em without ability to prove the fail.

[ColdWaterBlake]

Both very beautiful boats in my opinion... Just incase anyone asked lol.

[Bycrick]

I can’t speak to the Formosa 51, but I owned a Formosa 37 for 25 years. I learned a tremendous amount about boat building and boat fixing, which I did the whole time I owned it. If there was weather to go to, it wanted to go the other way. But I sailed it from SF, to Panama, then to French Polynesia and back to SF. I took two almost full knockdowns, one from a big wave and the other from a big gust of wind off the Farallons. Nothing on the boat ever broke at sea. As zeehag says, it’s a comfortable downwind boat. But like all boats, you have to take care of it, and it will take more care than a more modern design.

[robwilk37]

like most boats it all depends on the quality of the upkeep and maintenance. at 40 yrs old it really shouldnt have any of the original systems or rigging so as long as a knowledgeable owner kept her up then should be worth a look.

fell in love with the salty looks of these boats before i knew anything about sailing or sailboats. love all the wood as long as someone else maintains it, big enough below to throw a frisbee, takes a near gale to get her moving but very comfortable once you get the mo up.

one of my best sailing memories was a blast reach from cabo to punta mita in 20-25kts and a following sea. sitting for hours at the end of that long sprit staring at the wake under full canvas and mizzen staysl'... life was good.