43' Boro Steel Ketch - Opinions ?

[Serenity01]

Hello again,

Back with a 43ft Boro Steel Ketch this time. Price seems right even though it needs work. Not too worried about this as I am prepared to do any wiring and basic wood work. I have a list of features in PDF if your keen to know, just PM me. Here’s a link:

BORO KETCH boat details - BoatPoint Australia

I am worried that the engine may be underpowered which seems to be a common theme for Boro's? The dealer seems to think she has a 20 Tonne Displacement which seems high? Also, they claim not to know who built it. Does that seem a bit odd? What is the best way to find this kind of information?

Thanks in advance,

[barnakiel]

Could be home build, many have been.

Engine requirement minimum 2 hp per 1000 Kilograms. Minimum. My own boat 3 hp and I think what you see today (4-5 hp) does make sense in a cruising boat in any confined waters (e.g. the NT).

20 tonnes can be correct as home built steel boats do tend to be overbuilt.

b.

[Serenity01]

Yeah, she comes in at about 1.8HP per tonne if the weight is correct and assuming the engine will actually output 36HP. The broker says she is built from 5mm steel which might explain some of the extra weight. We plan on keeping the yacht we buy for a long time and doing a lot cruising so the strong hull appeals and the fact that it may need a repower down the track doesn't scare me too much if I get it at the right price.

I have done a bit of digging around and the broker said she was built in Mortlake, New South Wales. The only record I can find was a boat builder going by the name Boro Yacht Designs and they did build at least two 43ft Steel ketch's there. Can't seem to find much detail about them though, just a listing. I'm also starting to think that the launch date the broker has given may be an error as I am having trouble finding any Boro Steel Ketch's that were built after 1985. From what I can see they seem to range from 1978 to 1985. Any info people could shed on the designs would be very helpful. Thank you,

P.S. Question for Ausies, the broker has quoted $25 per foot for survey or about $1100 to survey the yacht. Does this seem fair? I am very reluctant to get it surveyed by the broker who is selling the yacht, what legal recourse is there if they "missed" something during the survey?

[boden36]

I would shop around for your survey. Anyone who works through the broker will have a conflict of interest. Regards, Richard.

[VirtualVagabond]

Mortlake is a Sydney suburb on the Paramatta river. In the 70s/80s there was a lot of mixed boat building activity around there, including quite a few home builders and small commercial operators. Old sheds could be rented cheaply because they were standing around empty anyway. Easy crane access, concrete wharf, slipway too I think.
Boro's have been around for decades. No personal experience but I haven't heard anything negative.
I wouldn't go with any surveyor a broker recommends. Who is going to be in the back of his mind, the one-off buyer, or the guy that feeds him business every month?
There should be a national association of some sort to try, or yellow pages, or ring a broker in the city and ask who they'd recommend.
Good luck.

[barnakiel]

You should not take a survey from a broker. The first thing is that these are two completely different professions.

At times I do survey boats for prospective buyers among my friends. In fact, I do hull, rigging, sails and systems and hire a mechanic to do the engine part. In the most optimistic scenario a 40 footer can be fully surveyed in one day but it will often be two days of survey work plus some amount of time for research and preparing the report.

A proper survey requires the boat to be hoisted out of the water, etc.. so on top of the survey fees you will have to pay for the travelift time.

b.

[JustThinking]

???
Do I get this right?
A 1993 42 foot steel yacht coming with a price-tag of 42K €uros?
And you are hesitating?
??


I mean that this aint gonna be a racer should be clear, right?
Rig looks more than just decent and should get you from A to B - who cares about if the engine maybe being a tad underpowered? You want to go SAILING, right?

OK, so the interior does look a bit like straight out of an ikea-catalog but the rest of the boat does make the impression of a firm, solid, no-fuzz construction ... and at the end of the day this is what matters? no?

(I'd prefer that over lots of little cushions with smart statements on them all over the salon! *grin*)

(And as I have said before: I think surveyors are over-estimated. I believe that one shouldn't actually buy any boat if one doesnt understand enough about what to look for and how to check and decide if the boat was good, sound and seaworthy or not. Every single delivery skipper will be able to make such a check within one hour tops on any boat. After all we take on vessels we have never seen before, we are being frequently lied about (or simply left in the dark by clueless owners) but will trust the lives of our crews and ourselves to these boats. Without any prior survey!)

Anyway: I'd buy it, have fun with it and enjoy life! Who knows how long ever growing big brother will tolerate us sailing folk moving outside the ever increasing total control?

[SuenosAzules]

I agree with Bodgen36 (Richard). Use an independent marie surveyor to avoid a conflict of interest. Also for a history of the vessel try soldboats.com or ask someone with an account. There may be possible history on the vessel from previous sales there.

[Serenity01]

Thanks for the good advice people, much appriciated. The Yacht is currently under contract - we were too slow.

Fingers crossed the other party pulls out.

[Boracay]

I'd suggest talking to the broker about doing a pre survey inspection yourself.

There have been books written on this, and I've seen some excellent websites. There should even be quite a bit in this forum if you care to hunt round.

Some key points that come to mind:-
* Expect the boat to be old. This means that every system - engines, electrics, steering, sails, rigging, you name it, will be old as well. A survey can cover the basics but there is just so much on an old steel boat that can go wrong that time runs out.
* Take a very good look at the engine. A repower could be very much in her future so be sure you have the additional cash to do one and the rest of what is needed. Figure on 75+hp and a new engine. As a rule of thumb double the price of the engine to get an idea of cost. Check that the propeller shaft will take the extra power.
* Can you do work yourself? Cruisers have to be handy but an old steel boat takes this to a whole new level.
* Get yourself two or more small torches and a couple (might drop one!) of those little inspection mirrors on extension sticks that mechanics use.
* You've got to look at as much of the stringer/bulkhead/frame weld/join as possible so you'll be pulling drawers out and really getting behind furniture. A small digital camera with a flash could also give much information about hard to see places.
* When negotiating keep in mind that an old cruising yacht may be "fully loaded". Try to get every skerrick of gear/equipment/charts/manuals/books/etc. that you can, even if you have to pry them out of someones garage. Make sure this is written in your offer (if you make one) and fully understood. Photos as you go over the boat can back this up. Don't try and stiff the owner on price.
* Pay particular attention to the steel plating in the chain locker and the lazarette.
* Look for any evidence of water pooling or rust streaks.
* A bit of rust may not be a deal killer but do include any fixes into your go/no go decision.
* Repairs in Queensland may be easier to manage than Sydney, even if you get professional help to move the boat. Do talk to delivery skippers before doing anything else if this could be in your plans.
* Steel boats might never be finished. There is just so much work, life is short and it's always going to be a steel boat.
* Take a large notebook with you as you go through and note all repairs/upgrades/fixes/etc. needed. Then go home and add it all up. Double or triple this figure. Do remember that expenditure could be spread out over quite a few years.
* Get the broker to start the engine and see if you can go for a trip round the bay. Pay particular attention to acceleration from rest and going into reverse to stop the boat. Look for exhaust smoke.

[Serenity01]

As a motor mechanic I am quite confident with assessing the mechanical, electrical and general condition of most things on the yacht - I tend to think that as a concern buyer I would do a more thorough job of it anyway. I expect it to be old and need repairs but I am prepared to do most of this myself. I haven't welded for a number of years but a day or two of practise should sort that out.

My biggest concern would be with any hidden problems with the hull that could be disastrous and expensive. Does a normal survey of the hull involve much more than a visual inspection out of the water inside and out? If so, how hard can it be to spot rust? Am I wasting my money with a Survey? Apart from needing it for insurance purposes that is.


We plan on doing a short trip around the top of Australia and then into Asia for our first run. This should tell us what the yacht needs and doesn't need before we spend too much on gadets and gizmos.

[foggysail]

My personal thoughts on surveys is that one should do as much as possible alone that is if one has enough skill. I know (again personally) I would avoid surveys until I was at the point of writing a check. And then, the only reason I would go forward with one is as you mentioned----insurance will require a survey.

People will always point that there are good surveys and then there are others. From what I have seen having been through two of them, the surveyor did not climb tall mountains. The ones I used had check sheets that are standard forms that point to standard things to examine.

I also paid dearly for a mechanical inspection/survey only because the boat being purchased was my first power boat. That was a very bad experience, no need to go into the details here.

Now...... can you get by without a survey???? I guess you can if you want to run without insurance and we understand that is very risky.

Foggy

[Surveyor]

If you do buy it, weld gunwales on the thing. It looks like you can slip right under the life lines.

[Boracay]

The main reason that you need a survey is to put a check on that rush of blood to the head that can come when buying. It feels really good to pull out the checkbook and plonk down a deposit. The survey is to make sure that 'buyer's remorse" does not set in after.

The second reason is that insurance companies love surveys. Probably from bitter experience. An insurance survey is not going to be that much cheaper than a full survey.

Rust is easy to check with a screwdriver. If it red/ brown and rubs or flakes off then it's rust.

It's an old steel steel boat so rust is a near certainty. The questions are 1) How much? and 2) How extensive?

Most can be chipped out, treated and repainted but some could need the boat taken from the water, steel welded in and reblasting. If it's getting to this level then it's very wise to assess the cost of repairs against the value of the boat before starting the buying process.

From what I've seen so far (outside of rust/corrosion and steering) the biggest question mark would have to be the engine. The very limited amount of cruising that I've done on the Qld and NSW coasts and the continued descriptions of light wind conditions through Asia have convinced me that a good big engine and a fair bit of fuel makes for a lot of peace of mind. I put a 85hp John Deere in a similar boat and there are still times when I think more would have been better.

[Cap Coala]

Originally Posted by Serenity01

Hello again,

Back with a 43ft Boro Steel Ketch this time. Price seems right even though it needs work. Not too worried about this as I am prepared to do any wiring and basic wood work. I have a list of features in PDF if your keen to know, just PM me. Here’s a link:

BORO KETCH boat details - BoatPoint Australia

I am worried that the engine may be underpowered which seems to be a common theme for Boro's? The dealer seems to think she has a 20 Tonne Displacement which seems high? Also, they claim not to know who built it. Does that seem a bit odd? What is the best way to find this kind of information?

Thanks in advance,

This is an old conversation, but let me ask you 2 things: 1) Did you bought the boat? Is it the black rose?

Thank you very much, I hope this message gets to you.