37' Atkins Ingrid Ketch

[jmalkire]

For the past 15 years, we have had a Herreshoff design 36' wood boat built in 1946. There is nothing like the feel of a wood boat under sail. We look at owning our wood boat as being a temporary caretaker, so we keep up with every little concern. We want the boat to outlive us. Without this type of attitude, we would not recommend an older wood boat. It takes so much attention and dilligence. It could be older fiberglass boats need the same attention but you can't leave an older wood boat untended for a year without unintended problems. Every other wood boat owner we have talked to say that older wood boats are about loving your boat because you have to treat them like a small child. Love, protect and enjoy.

[Carogan]

Originally Posted by jmalkire

For the past 15 years, we have had a Herreshoff design 36' wood boat built in 1946. There is nothing like the feel of a wood boat under sail. We look at owning our wood boat as being a temporary caretaker, so we keep up with every little concern. We want the boat to outlive us. Without this type of attitude, we would not recommend an older wood boat. It takes so much attention and dilligence. It could be older fiberglass boats need the same attention but you can't leave an older wood boat untended for a year without unintended problems. Every other wood boat owner we have talked to say that older wood boats are about loving your boat because you have to treat them like a small child. Love, protect and enjoy.

This is a mentality that I appreciate, and is how I believe I would be approaching it. I know that this mentality and commitment isn't for everyone, but I do think that this is how I would commit if I were to take this step.

The same can be said for some people and their crazy landscaping/gardens, or how some people absolutely baby their car etc.

I know that most people do not want to give that kind of investment to an inanimate object (and I get that! I don't think of cars in the same manner as some of these types!)

[jmalkire]

I know boats can be a monay pit but ours hasn't been that bad. Over the past 15 years we have spend $40,000 on upkeep of our boat. Including a new engine, prop, two sections of rot repair, yearly maintenance, pulling the mast twice, haulouts every three years, stripping the hull to bare wood, new electrical system. So, for $3,000 a year we would not have traded a minute. We live on her in the summer for 3 months and visit often on the winter. We live in Seattle so if you want to talk personally, let us know.

[Carogan]

Originally Posted by jmalkire

I know boats can be a monay pit but ours hasn't been that bad. Over the past 15 years we have spend $40,000 on upkeep of our boat. Including a new engine, prop, two sections of rot repair, yearly maintenance, pulling the mast twice, haulouts every three years, stripping the hull to bare wood, new electrical system. So, for $3,000 a year we would not have traded a minute. We live on her in the summer for 3 months and visit often on the winter. We live in Seattle so if you want to talk personally, let us know.

I know that $40,000 is a lot of money. But this is how I'm looking at it.

1. When I find the right boat and am finally able to make this step, the boat will be a liveaboard for me. Gone will be my rent of $1,350/mth. If I am able to find something suitable in the $15 - $20 k range then the only rent I have would be slip fees (assuming that I can't find a place to live on the hook for free). So maintenance costs of $250/mth plus slip fees is still far cheaper than what I'm currently paying rent for.

This whole topic of conversation would be a different story for me if I wasn't doing this as a liveaboard. I wouldn't even dream of buying this kind of boat if I had to maintain a separate permanent residence.

2. Because this is a liveaboard, upkeep and maintenance will be treated no differently than the efforts I've put into my previous homes. I've had houses with large yards and lots of landscaping, etc. (and don't kid yourselves - a house costs money to maintain and upkeep as well and the structure is a depreciating asset.) I honestly believe that a boat won't cost much more and likely won't take much more effort than a proud, conscientious homeowner would put in maintaining a property.

3. The difference between what I currently pay in rent and the costs of boat ownership would be substantial, and will be banked. People say that owning a boat is a "money pit" and isn't a good investment - but I do believe that this is a matter of perspective and how you approach the "investment".

A house is a money pit too - the structure is a depreciating asset. The property the home sits on is a tangible, non-depreciating asset, but its value is speculative just like any other investment out there (it is not guaranteed to continually rise in value like our parents had programmed us all to believe. There is risk when buying dirt just like any other investment). In addition property taxes need to be paid and there is a substantial amount of time a person needs to invest in maintaining it too.

Rent is a huge expense with no speculative upside either. It is a drain on the pocketbook.

So why not own a boat if a person desires this lifestyle anyways? The initial investment is cheaper than a home or rent. Once paid for you are not enslavened to a mortgage. You are not forced to invest your surplus income into anything like a homeowner must do to pay for the dirt when buying a house - a boat owner can choose any other investment he wants to invest his surplus income into - if he wants to - at his own choosing and timing. Heck - I could invest my surplus income into real estate if I think that's the best use of my money...but this way I get to choose.

The thing I value the most about choosing a paid for liveaboard boat versus buying/mortgaging a house vs. renting is the freedom this gives a person. You are free from debt slavery. You are free from the landlord and the banks. You are free to leave your job if you don't want/need to do it anymore. You are just plain, simply, free.

4. The idea of living aboard a boat that a) fulfill my needs, and b) is the kind of boat I desire, is that it makes the whole transition a whole lot more enjoyable. That is one major reason why I'm drawn to this type of boat - because I want to live on it and I want to be proud of it. There are many other boats out there that may fulfill my needs (and that I will always consider) but if it doesn't excite me from a "feels like home" or "fills me with pride" perspective, it does not have as much value to me.

That is why I would consider this kind of purchase even if it is a whole lot more work and may have some expense.

That doesn't mean that I don't want to go into this with eyes wide open - I am very capable of detaching myself emotionally from the business considerations of a transaction such as this. What some of the naysayers may not appreciate is that people that approach this like I have may have figured into this calculation a value/$ allowance of what this emotional consideration we have may be.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by roverhi

An Ingrid can be sailed short handed but it's a BIG 38' boat. Displacement is almost 30,000 pounds. With the bowsprit, you are probably north of 45' overall length. That will cost you in a marina as they almost all charge for overall length. The Ingrid is generally thought to be one of the best sailors that William Atkins designed. I owned a Westsail 32, a stubbier version of the Ingrid, and found it to be a great boat for long distance cruising. Not much fun for day sailing, however. Kind of like the difference between driving a Suburban and a Porsche 911. Atkin's boats have a reputation for being stable and stout boats without squarely handling that would make them difficult to sail.

I owned an Ingrid 38 and yes...it is a BIG 38. If it is blowing over 15 knots motoring into a harbor...good luck! They can be a handful. I mentioned this one other time on the forum and all the armchair circumnavigator gave me hell.
Regarding split rigs...They are expensive. Twice the wires, twice the sails.
To the OP...my suggestion for your first boat is to buy a 32'-36' f/g boat from the 60's. They can be had for $10-$20 grand.

[JDS61]

My Ingrid took about 5 quarts of bottom paint, paint can cost between $80 to $300 per gallon depending on your preference, she spent 3 years in the tropics with no ill affects. I have refastened boats of this vintage by drilling new holes next to old nails or screws and screwing in new ones, I have never tried removing them because they would never come out, more wood fiber will usually be damaged by attempting removal. This should give some of the experts on this thread a lot of grief. The one item of concern with construction, for me,is the wood planking on top of plywood on the deck, this is an invitation for a rotten deck, in wood or glass, as water penetrates the planking and rots the plywood or balsa core in a glass deck, and is hard to detect. Cape Georges,Tayanes and the Hans Christians all have this same problem with either plywood or glass covered with wood decks. All boats will have problems and issues, just pick the ones that you can live with. good luck, john

[mrohr]

Carogan: Some people can learn from others ,and some just have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves . Repost in a few years and let us all know how it feels.
Guess why I know what it feels like!

[casual]

Had a 39 ft wooden ketch hauled next to me.The ammount of time and money spent to make this boat seaworthy far exceeded the value IMO,He loved wooden boats.

[sailronin]

Carogan,

I'm late getting to this thread but I'll add a couple of things.
The boat you are looking at is the Solveig. I was very close friends with Kramer Rohfleisch and knew Bud the other builder (actually there were three partners who built her but the third sold his interest to Kramer and Bud shortly after launching). The boat was launched in 1954, and I began sailing on her in 1958 (at the age of 3 with my parents and Kramer), in 1969 I sailed aboard her from Hawaii to San Diego as part of a crew of 5. Much of my summer holidays was spent aboard her through my teens and I learned a lot about wood boat maintenance helping Kramer care for Solveig for many years.
Kramer kept Solveig until the late '80s when in his 80's he could no longer maintain her. Second owner kept the boat in San Diego and didn't maintain her well but only kept her for a couple of years. The current owner brought her to the PNW and lavished care on her, winning awards in Wooden Boat Shows.
I don't know her current condition but with the same owner I would imagine very good, she was extremely well built to begin with and well cared for most of her life.

That said, she is an old wooden boat and will require effort, knowledge and money to keep her seaworthy. If you purchase (or have purchased her) you will love her (and sometimes hate her) and learn a lot. Just don't go into this thinking it will be cheap or easy.

Good luck,
Dave

[daveyjustin]

Hi. I am also looking at Solveig as a potential move up in for additional crew space. I am currently on a 30 ft wooden double end cutter. I am in vancouver and have been on the boat and will be again visiting the boat tomorrow to ins9ect decks and climb masts etc.
This boat deserves a loving owner interested in preservation. In my opinion, the best way to preserve a boat is to sail it and fix anythong immediately.
Perhaps you'd be interested in splittling on the survey cost. One of us may find the boat useable for our purposes. As for wood. I find the work enjoyable and your boat tends to be a good business card when looking for work on other boats. Time off from sailing the boat can serve two functions. Time to earn more cruising kitty and time to work on your own boat. If you live aboard and work in an office, than you fimd you have little time t0left for your own boat after prep and take down consumes much of it.
Being new to sailing, I am happy to invite you out for a sail on my current boat anytime. I tend to find wooden boat owners to be of similar disposition.
Feel free to pm mee

[sailronin]

Hi
I appreciate the offer to share the survey but I'm located in Florida right now and wouldn't be in a position to ship her out here (plus I love Solveig and Florida would be the death of her with heat and sun here). She is a wonderful boat and deserves another caring owner.
Good luck and I hope she surveys well.
Best regards
Dave

[Tropicyachty]

First off it is a 38' Ingrid. My 1st big boat at 19 was a wood Mariner 40' and that broke me of wooden boats! You end at one end and restart where you began.....secondly The mariner like the ingrid is a slow boat to China, that can't go to weather! Any full keel boat i would own would have to have a big cutaway forefoot. A boat should be able to beat off a lee shore and the ingrid would have one tough time! Good luck!

[gjordan]

A little difference of opinion here! An Ingrid would not be on my short list of sailboats, but it would sail circles around a Mariner 40. I have sailed an Ingrid and sailed next to a Mariner 40 , and there is little comparison. Just another opinion.____Grant.

[Jim Cate]

Well, there are very different opinions expressed herein, and that's no surprise.

While I currently own a timber vessel, it is of modern construction (strip planked WRC and epoxy and some glass) and suffers none of the ails of traditional carvel planked boats. But I've spent enough time around classics to have an appreciation for them... and for the difficulty of restoring one that has decayed a bit.

So here's some practical advice for you: go around to a few yards that work on old woodies and get ballpark estimates for refastening, recaulking, sistering dubious frames and so on. This will give you an idea of how long it would take experienced professionals to accomplish the tasks. Try pricing bronze screws in the quantities needed to refasten. Find out what it will really cost you to slip the boat, and how much the lay days are... the paint is usually not the biggest part of the cost of annual slipping IME. Ask at all the local marinas what their liveaboard policies are and for a quotation on a liveaboard berth. In many areas a liveaboard berth of that size will about equal the rental on your current dwelling, and that's before any boat expenses are faced. And for the chap who only antifouls every three years... best of luck there, mate. In many places the worms will have you for lunch on that scedule.

I don't have a dog in this fight, and I like older timber boats just fine, but I really doubt that you have a realistic grasp of how expensive your future mistress will be.

Good luck with the decision!

Cheers,

Jim

[sailorjerry123]

I have owned 4 timber classics, and own a 38 Ingrid Ketch "timber"
Anyone that says wood is more maintenance than other boats is really talking out of his proverbial rear end. Sorry for the imagery but i am over tyre kickers that simply are afraid of getting their hands a little dirty.
I have been on the hard doing haul outs a number of times, once a guy next to me had the bad news he had osmosis peperring all over his hull, quote to barrier coat, 45000AUD.
But saying this, i do not say one construction is better than any other, every boat is prone to its own maintenance issues. Like any boat if you leave your girl in a Marina year after year, then expect things to ad up.
I would personally much prefer to replace a plank than a barrier coat, or weld plates on.
Give me a full timber keel in a raging following sea , hove too, any day.
I have delivered boats all over the planet have inspected and surveyed, Has Christians, Tayana 38's, etc etc. Wood breathes, GRP does not, neither does steel. Good old Dulux veranda paint with a bit more siccative to harden a little more is the best, even on glass. Painting a boat is not about how long it stays on, but how easy it is to get off. Its cheap easy and fun. So thats my 2 cents worth.. Buy a timber boat, you will not regret it.