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Polux · 25-07-2015, 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Really love this glass half full view. The 60 foot mono's beat "ALMOST ALL" the 50 foot tri's.

ALMOST all. So in other words, in conditions that suited the mono's they were ALL still beaten by some of the tri's.

I guess it's Like Comanche. The fastest boat ever built. Except for all the faster boats...

Yes I can be more specific, I remember one particularly where all the fleet of Multi 50 stayed behind the 3 or 4 first 60ft monohulls and only one arrived slightly ahead of the first Open 60. It was an incredible achievement only possible due to very risky sailing, always on the limit and risking capsizing and breakage many times (some other multihull capsized or broke).

The feat was achieved by one of my favorite sailors, Franck-Yves Escoffier on Crêpes Whaou.

Factor · 25-07-2015, 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunita

I think the concern over whether Comanchee was built to be the worlds fastest boat or not is mis-guided. Who cares what Mr. Clarke was thinking or aiming for. He put up a boat load of money and created a fabulous fast sail boat! Way to go.
High performance boats with big budgets will eventually trickle down better tech and gear and designs to the rest of us.
So maybe the next uber-rich dude will build a cat or tri and the rest of us will be happy to whine about his ambitions.
Actually that will be a pretty cool boat, can't wait.

I still dont get it, for a lot less money he could have had a faster boat. Much faster.

As dick newick said, Sailing is about having fun, and going faster is always more fun.

robert sailor · 25-07-2015, 06:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Factor

I still dont get it, for a lot less money he could have had a faster boat. Much faster.

As dick newick said, Sailing is about having fun, and going faster is always more fun.

Actually I agree with you but if you are having difficulty understanding the above why do most multihullers choose slow and comfy???

Polux · 25-07-2015, 06:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Actually I agree with you but if you are having difficulty understanding the above why do most multihullers choose slow and comfy???

I guess that for the same reason most monohull sailors choose slow and comfy?

robert sailor · 25-07-2015, 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polux

I guess that for the same reason most monohull sailors choose slow and comfy?

I don't disagree but fast is fun and we all know that. I do have a slow mono but I still sail it as fast as I safely can.

Polux · 25-07-2015, 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert sailor

I don't disagree but fast is fun and we all know that. I do have a slow mono but I still sail it as fast as I safely can.

I know you do, but that is not typical of the ones that have slow and comfy boats, being them condo cats or comfy/heavy monohulls.

Regarding ARC and multihulls if that is right that most condo cats do it slowly some few do it much faster, as faster as monohulls. I believe those belong to that minority that have slow comfy boats but like to sail them to their potential.

ozskipper · 25-07-2015, 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Ah, the toys money can buy...wonder which cost more? The wife or the boat?

If she costs him anything like her granddad cost the qld taxpayers its his own fault for investing it her.

44'cruisingcat · 25-07-2015, 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polux

Yes I can be more specific, I remember one particularly where all the fleet of Multi 50 stayed behind the 3 or 4 first 60ft monohulls and only one arrived slightly ahead of the first Open 60. It was an incredible achievement only possible due to very risky sailing, always on the limit and risking capsizing and breakage many times (some other multihull capsized or broke).

The feat was achieved by one of my favorite sailors, Franck-Yves Escoffier on Crêpes Whaou.

Isn't the whole point of racing sailing the boat right on the edge? Anyway, for sailing to windward in rough conditions, a 20% longer waterline ought to be a massive advantage. Yet still the 50 foot tri won.

Polux · 25-07-2015, 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Isn't the whole point of racing sailing the boat right on the edge? Anyway, for sailing to windward in rough conditions, a 20% longer waterline ought to be a massive advantage. Yet still the 50 foot tri won.

Who is talking about sailing to windward? A Transat is a downwind race. On an upwind race with bad weather the multi50 will not stand a chance against Open 60's.

Yes on the edge but they need to arrive and if the edge is too thin a multihull risks capsizing or breaking and that was what happened to most of the Multi 50. with exception of that boat all the others (that managed to finish) arrived way after several Open 60.

To look at boat performance you should look at averages, not single results were a particularly talented sailor risking all can make the difference. In this case it is more the sailor than the boat. The average (among top professionals and top boats) will give you a correct perspective of the boat's sailing potential.

Factor · 25-07-2015, 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Actually I agree with you but if you are having difficulty understanding the above why do most multihullers choose slow and comfy???

Cause they aren't sailors, - they are boaters.

Polux · 25-07-2015, 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Factor

Cause they aren't sailors, - they are boaters.

Or just cruisers that don't care particularly about sailing but about arriving to the cruising grounds.

Now the English is a bit tricky about the word (sailors) but I guess that a captain of a motor boat is a sailor too even if he does not sail

44'cruisingcat · 25-07-2015, 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polux

Who is talking about sailing to windward? A Transat is a downwind race. On an upwind race with bad weather the multi50 will not stand a chance against Open 60's.

Yes on the edge but they need to arrive and if the edge is too thin a multihull risks capsizing or breaking and that was what happened to most of the Multi 50. with exception of that boat all the others (that managed to finish) arrived way after several Open 60.

To look at boat performance you should look at averages, not single results were a particularly talented sailor risking all can make the difference. In this case it is more the sailor than the boat. The average (among top professionals and top boats) will give you a correct perspective of the boat's sailing potential.

You need to re-read your previous posts, and try to get your story straight.

Polux · 26-07-2015, 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

You need to re-read your previous posts, and try to get your story straight.

That is not a story but I was just me remembering past events and my memory is not what it used to be if you want hard facts here they are. I guess they would be instructive for some:

As you know the French top racing multihulls are the top of the crop, being the fastest American and Australian ones older and slower ex-French racing multihulls.

The biggest French race where multihulls race at the same time with monohulls is the Route du Rhum, a downwind Transat. This is a top race with top racing boats and top professional skippers.

An Ideal race to compare the results through the years between the Open 60's, Multi 50 and Orma60 trimarans leaving out the maxi trimarans (close to 100ft or more) simply because there are not top maxi monohulls racing there (the biggest top racing monohulls are IMOCA with 60ft):

The year of 2002 is especially interesting because it was the year with more stormy weather and is relevant to what I have been saying about the comparative performance in bad weather and breakage rate between the two types of boats:

On the 2002 edition there were 19 ORMA 60ft trimarans, 8 multi 50ft trimarans versus 17 IMOCA Open 60's monohulls.

From the 19 60ft trimarans only 3 made it to the finish (between capsizes and breakage) the 50ft trimarans experienced an abandon rate of 38% and the 60ft monohulls had an abandon rate of 30%. It gives a global multihull abandon rate of 74% versus a monohull abandon rate of 30%.

Regarding times the fastest boat was a Orma 60 multihull (one of the three that survived among 19 boats) that made it in 13d 07h 53m closely followed by the first monohull (13d 13h 32m). Another 60ft trimaran comes next with 13d 19h 36m followed by another 60ft monohull (13 22 50) and then the last surviving 60ft trimaran (14 07 01). The First 50ft trimaran arrived only after the 4 first 60ft monohulls.

This is no upwind race in bad weather (if it was so the results would be a lot better for the monohulls), but just a downwind transat with bad weather.

Looking at more recent editions and comparing the results of Multi 50 trimarans with Open 60 monohulls we can look at 2010 edition a race that had some stormy weather even if nothing comparable to the 2002 edition:

9 Open 60 versus 12 Multi 50 trimarans. One abandon among the Open 60, three on the Multi 50. Among these the first boats to arrive where 5 monohulls before the first trimaran. The difference between the first Open 60 and the first Multi 50 was about one day and a half.

You may stay with the impression that I am saying that 50ft top trimarans are slower than 60ft top monohuls but it is not what I am saying. On a milk run downwind without stormy weather a multi50 will be faster. With stormy weather downwind things start to get complicated for the Multi50 (or even ORMA 60ft trimarans) and they can be slower. With stormy weather upwind they don't stand a chance.

Don't take me wrong I love Multi 50 that I consider one of the more spectacular racing boats around and one of the more demanding for the skippers, specially with bad weather, a boat that will mark clearly the difference between a very talent sailor and just a good one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKq_cZrhcDo

donradcliffe · 26-07-2015, 20:12

Nice picture of a tri about 0.5 sec from disaster.

I've been looking at the entry requirements for the Transpac, and it looks like the Multi's got a free ride on stability--there are NO multihull stability requirements for boats over 45 feet. OTOH, all monos had to have a ORR stability index of 1.15 or greater (which my RTW boat did not have). Stability is slow, so its not exactly a level playing field.

This means that the first to finish Gunboat 66 Exreme H20 could and did put lifting foils on, which we all know enhances stability (NOT). Even so, they were slower than the 100 foot monos and one 75 ft mono.

Phaedo, the GB66 which spent slightly less money than Extreme H20 tearing out the cruising amenities to go into full race mode, has finished behind a 65 ft mono, but corrected out over Extreme H20.