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05-06-2023, 13:19
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2023
Posts: 5
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2 broken shroud wires
Hi Everyone,
Have a 1976 Hunter with two wires broken on the starboard mast shroud rigging.
Just purchased and before I could even take it out - it was damaged by coming into contact with the adjacent slightly larger sailboat's mast. Terrible marina with limited break wall plus very high winds.
I realize that I need to replace, but want to take it out in light winds to get a better idea whether this is the right vessel or not. Since there are 19 wires typically in the strand, the engineer in me thinks that it is still well within light wind safety limits. Even considering that the other wires may be compromised. I was told that at the end of the wire it is connected with rope to the mast. Difficult to imagine that 17 stainless wires are the weak point...
Would appreciate some kind opinions as I am new to sailing.
Thank you in advance!
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05-06-2023, 13:52
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#2
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 28,400
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Re: 2 broken shroud wires
Leaning against a mast probably wouldn't have bothered the wire if it were full strength on the inside. We had a 304 s/s baby stay pop, at sea, whose only job was to keep the mast from inverting (not huge loads like capshrouds), and all it was was shiny on the outside, and rust powder within. My opinion here is that since you didn't mention what kind of wire it is, 304? 316?, nor the age, your hypothesis could prove expensively wrong.
Right now, the mast is still intact. Taking the boat out, even in calm weather risks you not only replacing all the wire of uncertain age and origin, but a whole mast, running rigging, and any other damaged bits as well. It is the risk/benefit analysis that would put me right off, but then I'm risk averse, when the solution is easy. Your boat, your choice. You might get away with it, but if it is really that light, you aren't likely to learn much about the boat, although it would be pleasant to be able to use it. [We were dismasted back in '96, and the new mast plus the running rigging and standing rigging came to about $25,000, AUD, not USD.] The dismasting was not only expensive, but it was unpleasant, and fortunately no one was injured, so it could have been a lot worse, and we were only 65 miles offshore. Ymmv.
Ann
__________________
Who scorns the calm has forgotten the storm.
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05-06-2023, 14:04
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#3
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Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 6,174
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Re: 2 broken shroud wires
Well, since you call the marina "terrible", you probably aren't going to stay there :-) So how far is it to the marina where you are going to keep the boat permanently?
Does the engine function satisfactorily and reliably? If so, just motor the boat home. and get the stay fixed there.
Since you have already bought the boat is it not a little late "to get a better idea whether this is the right vessel or not."? But you are a novice you say, so you are unlikely to have enough knowledge and experience to be able to make a sound comparison twixt one boat and another in any event, so you best just to get the most out of the Hunter that you can until you do develop the necessary discernment.
Hunters are commodities, really, so at the appropriate time you will have no difficulty "moving up" (or sideways, or down or altogether out of the game), if that is what you choose to do.
As for the broken stay, call in a rigger to replace it. Or since you are an engineer, buy some 1x19 SS wire of the appropriate size and make up your own new stay by using StaLok end fittings that you can buy at many chandlers or order in "on line"
If the stay is really attached to the tang at the top of the mast with cordage, the boat musta belonged to someone who was permanently "out to lunch", and surely you woulda noticed that at the pre-purchase inspection?
Bonne chance
TrentePieds
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05-06-2023, 14:39
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Victoria BC
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 1,390
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Re: 2 broken shroud wires
The 1976 hunters are the Cherubini designed ones, right? Those things are great tough little boats that sail surprisingly well.
I probably wouldn't risk sailing with two broken wires, if it was bad enough condition to break those two strands the rest of the rigging is probably pretty awful too.
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05-06-2023, 14:50
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2023
Posts: 5
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Re: 2 broken shroud wires
The rigger that I spoke to stated that it is slippery slope regarding starting into rigging. Will be >$600 to replace the single shroud line and wondering whether this will turn into replacing all the riggings.
Apologies as I am not new to boating, but new to sailing and forums.
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05-06-2023, 14:59
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Victoria BC
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 1,390
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Re: 2 broken shroud wires
$600 to replace the single shroud? That seems way too much. Might be worth calling around. If it's 1/4 which I think most of that model was, its around 2.50 a foot x 50 = 125 bucks in wire, plus another 100 or so in fittings? Plus another 100 for the hour to fit the shroud + the swaging and the whole thing probably shouldn't be more than 350-400.
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05-06-2023, 15:56
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Easton, MD
Boat: 15' Catboat, Bristol 35.5
Posts: 3,510
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Re: 2 broken shroud wires
Don't push your luck. The risk reward analysis greatly favors replacing the shroud before sailing the boat. Cheap fix now, totaled boat if it breaks sailing.
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05-06-2023, 16:05
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: San Francisco
Boat: Morgan 382
Posts: 2,839
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Re: 2 broken shroud wires
The shroud should have survived contact with the other boat. It was probably not full strength before, and is more so compromised now. Under no circumstances should you consider it safe to sail with a shroud with a broken strand.
It shouldn't cost that much to replace the shroud, and I would suggest it all needs replaced if one shroud broke so easily. You can replace them yourself. It isn't hard as long as you are comfortable going up the mast. Support the mast with halyards, and one at a time remove a shroud, have a rigger make a new one the same length, then replace. You can even save more money by ordering them online.
__________________
-Warren
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05-06-2023, 17:39
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#9
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Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 6,174
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Re: 2 broken shroud wires
5/16" 1x19 SS (316) wire would run about a buck a foot. on a Hunter 30 (if that is what you have) there are four lowers at about 25 feet long ("shrouds" to some) and two uppers about 40 feet long, a forestay of say 42 feet and a backstay of say 45 feet, for a total of about270 feet of 1x19. Add thereto the fittings and the labour. Buy StaLoks and you can do the job yourself.
If you have a cost concern, take note that you cannot keep a thirty-footer for any length of time for less than a thousand bux a month. The day you buy a boat, establish a "boat account " separate from all you other affairs, and feed it, on the first day of ownership, with the same amount you paid for the boat just to cover immediate essential repairs. Then, every month, feed it a thousand bux. You will find that after ten years of owning the boat, all that money was only JUST enuff to keep 'er ship-shape! If there is any money left in the account when you sell the boat, treat yourself to a good celebratory dinner out :-)!
Don't begrudge the maintenance money. Ann told you she and Jim had sailed a mast overboard. So have I. With a crew of raw beginners aboard an ill-kept sailing school boat. In the middle of the night. But it was only blowing five-and-twenty so, helped by the gutsiest person aboard, a 95 lb suburban housewife who was there only to please her husband, I spent the rest of the night and most of the following morning making the ship safe and getting her underway again. The rest of the crew couldn't get their skivvies to the laundromat soon enuff when we got back to homeport the following day.
Bite the bullet and change you standing rigging!
TrentePieds
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05-06-2023, 17:44
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#10
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: EC
Boat: Cruising Catamaran
Posts: 1,033
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Re: 2 broken shroud wires
You have identified two broken strands as a result of a collision. You do not know what other parts of the rig may have been stressed as a result, especially areas you can't see easily. Do you know the age of the rig, it could be 30 years old?, in which case you should replace it all anyway. If it was me I would have mast taken down and rig thoroughly checked by a rigger if not renewed. In the mean time I would rig a spinnaker halyard at act as a backup stay should the broken one fail. Also if you have boat insured and you decide to sail with a compromised rig, you may have claim denied.
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06-06-2023, 09:49
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#11
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2023
Posts: 5
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Re: 2 broken shroud wires
Is the boat coming into contact with the adjacent boat a viable insurance claim?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Tin
You have identified two broken strands as a result of a collision. You do not know what other parts of the rig may have been stressed as a result, especially areas you can't see easily. Do you know the age of the rig, it could be 30 years old?, in which case you should replace it all anyway. If it was me I would have mast taken down and rig thoroughly checked by a rigger if not renewed. In the mean time I would rig a spinnaker halyard at act as a backup stay should the broken one fail. Also if you have boat insured and you decide to sail with a compromised rig, you may have claim denied.
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06-06-2023, 09:56
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#12
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2023
Posts: 5
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Re: 2 broken shroud wires
Thanks everyone for taking the time to write the words of advice.
I have owned a 43' power boat that I have owned for 15 years. I certainly understand maintenance and cost.
Fundamental question was what loss of structural strength is loss with 2 strands out of 19 being broken.
Suppose that I knew that would be difficult to answer.
Suppose that I was hoping that someone would say that "I have had ~2 wires broken and never had an issue.
Thanks everyone for your time and needed advice!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentePieds
5/16" 1x19 SS (316) wire would run about a buck a foot. on a Hunter 30 (if that is what you have) there are four lowers at about 25 feet long ("shrouds" to some) and two uppers about 40 feet long, a forestay of say 42 feet and a backstay of say 45 feet, for a total of about270 feet of 1x19. Add thereto the fittings and the labour. Buy StaLoks and you can do the job yourself.
If you have a cost concern, take note that you cannot keep a thirty-footer for any length of time for less than a thousand bux a month. The day you buy a boat, establish a "boat account " separate from all you other affairs, and feed it, on the first day of ownership, with the same amount you paid for the boat just to cover immediate essential repairs. Then, every month, feed it a thousand bux. You will find that after ten years of owning the boat, all that money was only JUST enuff to keep 'er ship-shape! If there is any money left in the account when you sell the boat, treat yourself to a good celebratory dinner out :-)!
Don't begrudge the maintenance money. Ann told you she and Jim had sailed a mast overboard. So have I. With a crew of raw beginners aboard an ill-kept sailing school boat. In the middle of the night. But it was only blowing five-and-twenty so, helped by the gutsiest person aboard, a 95 lb suburban housewife who was there only to please her husband, I spent the rest of the night and most of the following morning making the ship safe and getting her underway again. The rest of the crew couldn't get their skivvies to the laundromat soon enuff when we got back to homeport the following day.
Bite the bullet and change you standing rigging!
TrentePieds
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06-06-2023, 09:57
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#13
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2023
Posts: 5
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Re: 2 broken shroud wires
Thanks everyone for taking the time to write the words of advice!
I have owned a 43' power boat that I have owned for 15 years. I certainly understand maintenance and cost.
Fundamental question was what loss of structural strength is loss with 2 strands out of 19 being broken.
Suppose that I knew that would be difficult to answer.
Suppose that I was hoping that someone would say that "I have had ~2 wires broken and never had an issue.
Once again, thanks everyone for your time and needed advice!
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06-06-2023, 10:16
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#14
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Sxm , Spain
Boat: CSY 44 Tall rig Sold!
Posts: 4,367
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Re: 2 broken shroud wires
When one strand jumps, the others follow in a short time.
If you want to get your hands on your head, take a pliers, gently squeeze the wire where it has broken and with the wire tightened turn the pliers in one direction and the other, surely another one or 2 will jump, change them, they are fried.
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06-06-2023, 11:01
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#15
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Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 6,174
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Re: 2 broken shroud wires
In direct reply to your question re viability of an insurance claim.
The strict legal position is that the underwriter will "make you whole", i.e. return your property to the condition and the value it had immediately before the incident.
Since you have acknowledged two broken strands in one stay, I would, if I were the adjuster, take the position that they were broken at the end of their lives as a result of having been weakened by "ordinary wear and tear" (because had they been new, the tangling with the other boat's rigging would NOT have broken them). Therefore all other wires must be considered to be at the end of their lives also, and therefore valueless.
Thus your claim would be denied.
However, you'll never know unless you make the claim. But be careful! Some underwriters will adjust future premiums asked based on claims "paid out", and others will base the premium of claims MADE (whether the claims resulted in pay-outs or not).
Just swallow hard and renew your standing rigging :-)!
TP
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