The NorthEAST Passage Over Siberia Norway to the Pacific

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Dauntlessny

The Northern Sea route seems more reliable ice wise than the NW Passage.

The NSR is more open. The NWP has the Arctic Archipelago in the way.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by jackdale

Yes, that is what you are doing.

yep banging my head against the wall trying to get my point across .
Your link says 3.9 sq miles per icebreaker the link I posted in the other thread showed currently up to 50 icebreakers active in the arctic. ( that doesn't count the freighters with ice breaking ability) so
3.9 x 50 = 195 sq miles in a given day and if the ice fissures are along the edges you now have free floating icebergs. That would otherwise be part of the arctic pack ice. If they had not been broken free by the efforts of man.
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2...onomic-arctic/

[TheThunderbird]

Have we evidence that the azipod propellers are used for churning the ice pack.??

I quite feel in doubt...

[rgleason]

NOAA has an Iceberg watch in the northern Atlantic, and has reported that the number of icebergs has risen significantly for the the last 4 years, I believe. Additionally the established Ice limit line has not served well last summer or the summer before.

[newhaul]

https://runaskarbo.wordpress.com/201...omment-page-1/

[Dauntlessny]

[quote name="jackdale" post=2550694]And I keep giving you the same answer.<br />
<br />
<br />
https://nsidc.org/cryosphere/iceligh...anging-climate<br />
<br />
You keep rejecting the answer.[/QUOTE]<br />
<br />
its not the specific answer so much as that it only looks at what one icebreaker does now multiply that by the number of icebreakers that are active and it becomes something to watch especially in respect to fragmenting and damaging the ice allowing pieces to move more freely. Which causes migration to warmer waters. Thereby melting at an accelerated rate. Than would otherwise happen. <br />


And what's rhe mechanism to move the ice?
Big or small, broken or not, they all move to the same currents or not.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Dauntlessny

[quote name="jackdale" post=2550694]And I keep giving you the same answer.<br />
<br />
<br />
https://nsidc.org/cryosphere/iceligh...anging-climate<br />
<br />
You keep rejecting the answer.

<br />
<br />
its not the specific answer so much as that it only looks at what one icebreaker does now multiply that by the number of icebreakers that are active and it becomes something to watch especially in respect to fragmenting and damaging the ice allowing pieces to move more freely. Which causes migration to warmer waters. Thereby melting at an accelerated rate. Than would otherwise happen. <br />


And what's rhe mechanism to move the ice?
Big or small, broken or not, they all move to the same currents or not.[/QUOTE]

The sea ice in Arctic drifts in a wind driven gyre.



The Beaufort Gyre is a wind-driven circulation system that traps and pushes freshwater and ice around the Arctic Ocean. NSIDC/AMAP

[jimbunyard]

Graphically...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj1G9gqhkYA

[rgleason]

Yes, that is the way it used to work.... things change. Ice flows are moving further south now past the historic limit of ice lines set by Noaa. Density of water is changing, and currents are changing. Pretty amazing video clip.

[jackdale]

China to develop Arctic shipping routes opened by global warming

China to develop Arctic shipping routes opened by global warming - BBC News

[newhaul]

Bad news for arctic sea ice in winter Russian nuclear icebreakers operating in January
https://sputniknews.com/russia/20180...rctic-wake-up/
Just what I have been saying would happen

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Bad news for arctic sea ice in winter Russian nuclear icebreakers operating in January
https://sputniknews.com/russia/20180...rctic-wake-up/
Just what I have been saying would happen

Since it's apparently impossible to explain to you how you have it precisely backwards, (icebreakers are operating in the open Arctic more because they now can, as a result of the thinning ice due to Arctic warming from AGW; virtually the entire Arctic ocean is now navigable 365 days out of the year by icebreaker, whereas as lately as 20 years ago a large portion of the open Arctic ocean was covered by ice that was too thick for any icebreaker to operate in for most, if not all, of the year), here is a perhaps more accurate synopsis of what the icebreaker was doing and where it was...

The story linked too has little to do with the open Arctic, the icebreaker in question was operating in the Yenisei River or river delta or Yenisei Gulf, which is what icebreakers do. The story doesn't stipulate where exactly, but we can make some predictions based on the sketchy info given.

The 'Arctic Adventurers' were traveling from Norilsk, a medium-sized mining city at about 69 N, to Dikson, a small town at about 73N on the Kara Sea. One might assume that rather than going overland, the AA's chose to follow the 'river route', for whatever reasons.

The Yenisei River is the outlet for the the production of one of the largest known copper/nickel deposits on earth. It has been in operation since 1935. Icebreaker operation in the area has likely been going on since the invention of icebreakers...

A few Google earth images;

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

Since it's apparently impossible to explain to you how you have it precisely backwards, (icebreakers are operating in the open Arctic more because they now can, as a result of the thinning ice due to Arctic warming from AGW; virtually the entire Arctic ocean is now navigable 365 days out of the year by icebreaker, whereas as lately as 20 years ago a large portion of the open Arctic ocean was covered by ice that was too thick for any icebreaker to operate in for most, if not all, of the year), here is a perhaps more accurate synopsis of what the icebreaker was doing and where it was...

The story linked too has little to do with the open Arctic, the icebreaker in question was operating in the Yenisei River or river delta or Yenisei Gulf, which is what icebreakers do. The story doesn't stipulate where exactly, but we can make some predictions based on the sketchy info given.

The 'Arctic Adventurers' were traveling from Norilsk, a medium-sized mining city at about 69 N, to Dikson, a small town at about 73N on the Kara Sea. One might assume that rather than going overland, the AA's chose to follow the 'river route', for whatever reasons.

The Yenisei River is the outlet for the the production of one of the largest known copper/nickel deposits on earth. It has been in operation since 1935. Icebreaker operation in the area has likely been going on since the invention of icebreakers...

A few Google earth images;

ok explain how I have it backwards ice breakers operating above the arctic circle in the dead of winter . How can this be a good thing?

[Pete7]

So the Russian Federation pumps gas half way across the former USSR into Europe and then all the way across the EU to the UK via a series of pipes. The UK also ships in gas from Qatar to the UK. Meanwhile Norway a UK neighbour, Ships gas all the way to Korea through the NE Passage.

Why can't we swop Norwegian gas for Qatar gas and send the Qatar gas to Korea?

Pete

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by newhaul

ok explain how I have it backwards ice breakers operating above the arctic circle in the dead of winter . How can this be a good thing?

Have you changed your opinion that icebreakers are substantially contributing to the Arctic sea ice losses? If not, then, as stated;

'icebreakers are operating in the open Arctic more because they now can, as a result of the thinning ice due to Arctic warming from AGW...'

Good or not is entirely a matter of perspective...