The Reef Ain't Dead

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by boatman61

To the last two posters..
You don't get a choice on gloves puppets.. Face it..
In the last two US elections Bernie Sanders was the people's champion funded not by Big Corprate/Tech but by $25 donations from the average Joe.. would have smashed Hillary and Biden but both times was ordered to stand down by the Hierarchy.
The change can only start at the top..
What's that millennium old saying..
"Young Men go to fight wars and change the world but, when the dust has settled and the smoke has cleared the old men rebuild it as it was.."

Whaaaat? I guess you just completely change the topic when things are not going your way?
And please, this is hard enough without dragging politics into it.

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by lestersails

Stunning logical fallacy. Because science can't predict some things (fossil fuel deposits) it can't predict anything.
Seriously?

So do you also disbelieve the scientific predictions of when the sun will rise tomorrow or what the tides will be?

More stunning logical fallacies. I'm fairly certain that humankind had decided that the sun would rise every morning long before we had any scientists.

Also I think that it was Newton who put the maths to the tides but I'm also fairly certain that folks who lived around the seas would have observed the tidal rise and falls their changing magnitudes and even their relation with the phases of the moon well before Newt figured out how gravity worked on them.

I'm generally a big fan of science and scientists but experience has taught me that they are just as liable to lack of objectivity and the lure of agendas as the rest of us.

[Tillikum]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I get it.. you don't get the humour in watching the rats having to scuttle for a change..
As for the Semper Fi.. that's just me taking the piss out of the programming of many nations populations.. like N Korea, China, Russia and the Shining Light on the Hill.
Why you think these people are leaders baffles me, they sold out many years before they became 'Leaders' as they boosted their bank accounts and gained promotion... and if they buck the program/system they're eliminated.
Why was Gaddafi terminated.. cruelty to his people.??? Naah, he represented a threat to the current financial dominance in the world by daring to try for a separate continental monetary system..
Why did Kuwait antagonise and defy Iraq by bumping up fees to use their ports exhorbitantly then refuse to sell Saddam a deserted island in the Gulf so Iraq could build its own deep water port.. certainly not because it's half million population could take on Sadam but because it was told to and that it would be protected..
Iraq.??? that's what happens if you end a war without permission.
You people seem to think you choose leaders, you don't, your told which glove puppets you can choose from.. (Disclaimer: some delusional bubbles need bursting)
Like me your not a name, just another number..

The rats rarely have to scuttle from what I see of history, though having fouled the water, gnawed the charts and chewed the pump glands, they often go down with the ship, if it's any comfort to the passengers and crew.

I see that you are observing the symptoms most acutely, but the disease is fundamentally a moral one, and the moral is fundamentally spiritual, though that is an avenue of inquiry most prefer not to go down; we are much more comfortable losing ourselves in the material. Still, it's all there for those who will look...and looking has never been easier.

It comes down to curiosity and a willingness to observe until the patterns in the evidence emerge and then to follow those where they lead, however divergent from our present opinions. I believe they call it "the spirit of inquiry."

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by lestersails

Whaaaat? I guess you just completely change the topic when things are not going your way?
And please, this is hard enough without dragging politics into it.

So from this I take it you don't believe politics and are part of the problem regarding nature's decline..

https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/austr...131-31s94.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-33350101

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/08/...lobal-warming/

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

I'm generally a big fan of science and scientists but experience has taught me that they are just as liable to lack of objectivity and the lure of agendas as the rest of us.

The whole 'lack of objectivity and the lure of agendas' gig is a canard that is casually tossed out to disparage scientific conclusions that people just don't like. Of course, various scientific predictions (e.g., sunrise, AGW, earthquake prediction) have varying levels of reliability or validity. But certain people misrepresent that to pick and choose which scientific predictions they are willing to accept - based not on their validity, but rather how much they like the answer. A handy and useful all-purpose tool to make the answers fit one's preferences.

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by boatman61

So from this I take it you don't believe politics and are part of the problem regarding nature's decline..

One of the challenges in having debates and discussions on AGW or other controversial topics is when people throw politics, especially partisan politics, into the mix. Sheesh man, this is hard enough. Science used to be bipartisan and should be again. Another distraction from what was a semi-coherent forum on AGW and its impact on our glorious reefs.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by lestersails

One of the challenges in having debates and discussions on AGW or other controversial topics is when people throw politics, especially partisan politics, into the mix. Sheesh man, this is hard enough. Science used to be bipartisan and should be again. Another distraction from what was a semi-coherent forum on AGW and its impact on our glorious reefs.

Hey I'm not a partisan.. both sides are as bad as the other in their own way..
I feel the same way about things in my home country.. tho' by nature a conservative I'll happily cheer on a Labour/Lib-Dem MP if I think they are pushing in the right direction.
Science being bipartisan is a myth.. the race for German and Japanese scientists/biologists after WW2 proved that..
They work for the person funding the projects pro/anti tobacco, pro/anti chemicals in agriculture, its the outliers who fund themselves and have their findings invariably scorned.
Ridiculed science mavericks vindicated

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Ridiculed science mavericks vindicated

The first name on the list is the one of the originators of the concept of AGW.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

............ I'm also fairly certain that folks who lived around the seas would have observed the tidal rise and falls their changing magnitudes and even their relation with the phases of the moon well before Newt figured out how gravity worked on them.
........

Yep, them fishermen (and other water rats) were scientists in their own right. Old King Canute wasn't though - unless you consider his 'hypothesis' to be proved incorrect.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by jackdale

The first name on the list is the one of the originators of the concept of AGW.

Proves I'm not biased..
Never have I said I don't think the climate and systems are changing.. been seeing changes crossing the Atlantic since 2001 and experienced the change over the last 20yrs.
I argue about some of the claimed causes VS some of the deliberately ignored ones.. also some of the 'solutions'.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Never have I said I don't think the climate and systems are changing.. been seeing changes crossing the Atlantic since 2001 and experienced the change over the last 20yrs.
'.

It was a really long slow trip...

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by jackdale

The first name on the list is the one of the originators of the concept of AGW.

Another silly diversion into denialism.
If you can't win an argument - change the subject, divert, digress!!!

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by lestersails

Another silly diversion into denialism.
If you can't win an argument - change the subject, divert, digress!!!

Huh??

[Exile]

Originally Posted by lestersails

Another silly diversion into denialism.
If you can't win an argument - change the subject, divert, digress!!!

As classic a case of "friendly fire" as I've seen in quite awhile.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Tillikum

. . . If people suppress self-criticism as well as group-criticism, then they open themselves to all sorts of pathological conceits and self-congratulatory narcissism. Humility goes out the window, and soon, without our even noticing it, an attitude of arrogance and unexamined self-superiority can take hold and become the norm within our group. Along with insecurity and denial will come our subconsciously-motivated attacks made upon anyone who dares to puncture our self-importance and to expose our genuine flaws. . . .

Boy, this rather nails it, esp. the bolded parts for me. And not just over the CC issue. More often than not it's the people who repeatedly express the most certainty who actually know the least. Too busy talking maybe. Or as someone once put it, "often wrong, never in doubt." Or was it "always wrong, never in doubt?" Either way, it usually trips my bulls**t meter. Sometimes I don't know if I have it set too low or need to turn it up.