New Caledonia nickle & Tesla

[owly]

Nickle Mining may be far off our "radar", but ultimately many cruisers / voyagers I suspect will be using electric drive as batteries become ever cheaper, not to mention solar panels, etc. Already I suspect many people are looking at all electric.... getting rid of propane or alcohol...... battery power is in our future......... But we are trading one kind of environmental problem (CO2) for another or multiple others. Destruction of New Caledonia, The Congo, or the Atacama, etc, is pretty remote to most of us, but it is nice to know that Tesla is making some effort towards "sustainable" extraction. I'm no fan of billionaires, but I've only known one well, and it isn't Elon Musk. But it is satisfying to see someone like him pushing the boundaries, and moving humanity forward (or so it seems) rather than simply sucking the lifeblood out of society for profit.


Here is a NYT piece that makes an interesting read..... enjoy and learn:



https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/30/w...caledonia.html

[Montanan]

Cobalt and nickel metals are comparatively expensive and the source is unreliable. Therefore, there is a shift towards the use of Lithium Ferrous Phosphate and to sodium ion batteries. Their energy / power densities are not quite as good as the more expensive lithium chemistries but much more affordable and abundant. The sodium batteries are particularly good in cold climate, hence CATL and others are coming out with dual chemistry battery packs, composed of LFP and sodium cells.

[Tetepare]

It's good to listen to both sides of a story. Anti-alternative energy concerns have long voiced the cost of making turbines, blades, and batteries. This stuff comes from somewhere...and is made by who and under what conditions? MSM and governments sell alternative energy without mentioning the risks or costs. I'm not judging, just saying it's not as perfect or simple as we're told.

As for Congo, well that part used to be called Katanga, which wanted independence from the corruption of Kinshasa, but UN would hear nothing of it so sent in troops to quell that little effort.

New Cal- well, let there be a hiccup in revenue and the Kanuks will rebel, as did the Bougainvilleans and Istabu.

[JPA Cate]

The Kanaks were in mourning for Covid deaths on the day the election was held. They did not vote because of being in mourning, and the predominantly White group voted to stay as part of the French Overseas Territories. The Kanaks had applied to France to have the voting date re-established after the New Year, but the request/application was denied.

We've watched the mining and the increasing employment of Kanaks in the industry for many years, now. It has, of course been an ever-changing picture. Employment of females has burgeoned as drivers of the huge mining trucks, and the women's wages have liberated some of them from a subservient role in the family structure. The mine owners really like them, saying they are easier on the machinery than the men. Reminds me of the song "Clouds", where the line was "Something's lost and something's gained in living Life each day." The political situation is rather strange. Some Kanaks live all over New Cal, but those who value most the traditional tribal life tend to live out in Mare, Lifou, and Ouvea, on the damp, fertile side of the territory. Some of the ones on the Main Island, Grande Terre, live in very poor urban communities. It's a bit like apartheid, to me, or Bel Air, in California, the divisions are so clearly drawn. However, the people there, regardless of colour, have always treated us in a friendly fashion.

It is a situation very much in flux. And, a whole lot is going to revolve around whether or not the plan for the toxic sludge is a successful one. Many -- from all groups-- have been concerned about spills of extremely toxic materials into a fragile, beautiful, and fertile marine environment. The mine representative that says it was a little spill when the poisoned water killed everything including all the fish in the stream that runs from Goro down to the lagoon, really minimized the importance of an event in a place from which the local people derive much of their food. Little spill from a miner's perspective equates to hungry fishermen's kids at suppertime.

The political situation is pretty unpleasant for many of the Kanaks and for some of the Caldoche (French ancestry natives), as well. Tetepare's evaluation above could turn out to be the correct one. But on the other hand, the incomes of the Kanaks, their access to education and medical care are better than the brown people's on many Pacific Islands, and all the brown people have issues with the colonials.

Ann

[tomsnrg]

Electric propulsion uses the materials in a recyclable way, cradle to cradle, at least for the metals involved. Oil is a depleting asset, even if still abundant. Crude oil production forever vs. nickel mining once, that's pretty much no contest. Plus you gain the chance to generate your own fuel underway. The only limiting factor is today's battery cost which comes down reliably year on year since the invention of lithium batteries 40 years ago.

[owly]

Ann:
Thanks for the informed (by direct experience) enlightened perspective on this. I suspect that the trials and tribulations of native peoples in any colonial environment or former colony is similar, dating back to the past great empires.... Used and absused, culture destroyed, etc. Humanity is guilty of far worse, but most of our history is not recorded except in the archaeological record, which is not much of a record at all. "Native American" history is a classic example. Wave after wave of fierce people out of the north..... to put it politely "displacing" earlier residents. NONE OF IT RECORDED except the most recent where Europeans invaded and displaced the earlier residents, who in their telling were the "original" inhabitants..... which clearly is far from the truth who who can gainsay their version?

Our legacy is not one I'm proud of. The destruction of one island is small potatoes compared to the destruction of the very environment all people, and all living things depend on.

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

The Kanaks were in mourning for Covid deaths on the day the election was held. They did not vote because of being in mourning, and the predominantly White group voted to stay as part of the French Overseas Territories. The Kanaks had applied to France to have the voting date re-established after the New Year, but the request/application was denied.

We've watched the mining and the increasing employment of Kanaks in the industry for many years, now. It has, of course been an ever-changing picture. Employment of females has burgeoned as drivers of the huge mining trucks, and the women's wages have liberated some of them from a subservient role in the family structure. The mine owners really like them, saying they are easier on the machinery than the men. Reminds me of the song "Clouds", where the line was "Something's lost and something's gained in living Life each day." The political situation is rather strange. Some Kanaks live all over New Cal, but those who value most the traditional tribal life tend to live out in Mare, Lifou, and Ouvea, on the damp, fertile side of the territory. Some of the ones on the Main Island, Grande Terre, live in very poor urban communities. It's a bit like apartheid, to me, or Bel Air, in California, the divisions are so clearly drawn. However, the people there, regardless of colour, have always treated us in a friendly fashion.

It is a situation very much in flux. And, a whole lot is going to revolve around whether or not the plan for the toxic sludge is a successful one. Many -- from all groups-- have been concerned about spills of extremely toxic materials into a fragile, beautiful, and fertile marine environment. The mine representative that says it was a little spill when the poisoned water killed everything including all the fish in the stream that runs from Goro down to the lagoon, really minimized the importance of an event in a place from which the local people derive much of their food. Little spill from a miner's perspective equates to hungry fishermen's kids at suppertime.

The political situation is pretty unpleasant for many of the Kanaks and for some of the Caldoche (French ancestry natives), as well. Tetepare's evaluation above could turn out to be the correct one. But on the other hand, the incomes of the Kanaks, their access to education and medical care are better than the brown people's on many Pacific Islands, and all the brown people have issues with the colonials.

Ann

[owly]

Originally Posted by tomsnrg

Electric propulsion uses the materials in a recyclable way, cradle to cradle, at least for the metals involved. Oil is a depleting asset, even if still abundant. Crude oil production forever vs. nickel mining once, that's pretty much no contest. Plus you gain the chance to generate your own fuel underway. The only limiting factor is today's battery cost which comes down reliably year on year since the invention of lithium batteries 40 years ago.

From what I've read your view of recycling is more than a little bit optimistic.


In the end overpopulation is the root cause of most if not all of our existential problems, and none of them will be solved until that reverses. Governments are lamenting the decline in fertility, and lower birth rate, which will upset the economic system based on continuous growth. It must be upset if humanity and other species are to survive.



Electric vehicles and battery power are great advances, but far too little and far too late. IMHO, we have already passed "the point of no return",and we had best hope reincarnation is not a thing.... that would be true justice ;-)

[candideyy]

Hi , i quite agree with you,
you see the half empty glass or half full glass
well, living in new caledonia and working there is nice, as living in paradise
but, mickel mining is a mess, destroying the ground, polluting the lagoon
i am not sure the end will be fine for the local one,
i think the question is who will get the money, some canaques who make politic, many white or western companies.
if you compare to the countries around, australia new zeland, they are lucky that french were here instead of GB, ask the maoris or arborigenal what they think about
for the others islands around, where are New Guinéa or Vanuatu
who would like in western countries to have a mine close to his door, with 100 tons trucks, dust pollution, noise, etc....
france give the country many things , just and example, many people living there, working there paying taxes, cant decide and vote for their future.
if this beautiful island become independant be sure that chinese will come, and they are all around, and for what they do , for example in papoua new guinea with their factory, i just can give you an advice, go to visit the country for the moment.
who knows what will happen soon.

[nortonscove]

Of course we forget that the biggest polluter is in the manufacturing of products including cars. If you simply get rid of a perfectly good car to buy an electric car that manufacturing process deletes any advantage you may have gained. Truth is we must all stop the overly commercialized behavior we exhibit.

[Startracker]

While in some ways it is simple in others it isn't.
Much is made of the fact that electrics use materials to produce as well. But this is a bit of a fallacy, because no matter what people buy new cars. It's simply whether or not the next car that they buy will have a different impact on the world.

The relative use for a given function is the important piece to my mind.
For example if total lifetime cost of my old car to drive 1 KM is x including embodied energy, and a new electric is Y including embodied energy, at what point is the relative break even. That is to say what year will my buying a new electric car now, and keeping an old car going end up at the same amount of energy.

At the end of the day I see electric coming in a big hurry for land use. Not so much for marine, except perhaps in hybrid forms.
Once the batteries are able to be recycled, and preliminary attempts in that direction seem to be showing that most of the material in a lithium battery is reclaimable, then the scale will tip much more in that direction. Simply saying that the scale isn't yet tipped there, even when it appears to be close, and certainly closer than it was 30 years ago is silly.
Evolving takes time. Money and energy.

All of this tech is in it's relative infancy. We know where we are. We know what we are trying to change. We can even see the improvements or consequences along the way. But simply sticking to the status quo has already clearly been shown to have an eventually fatal effect. We don't know when that date may be, but we know that it is over the horizon somewhere.

On the topic of batteries, I am most excited for LTO. From an install point of view it's a no brainer to me. Install them in 6SxP configurations and the top and bottom voltages are above and below the systems currently in play on 12V. Add a single low voltage cutoff(cheap) and you have a set and forget battery. Nothing we have around as of yet can get anywhere near a rate of charge enough to worry about, these batteries in busses in Japan are seeing MASSIVE charge rates relative to us.
I see them especially coming into play in vehicles, especially as energy density improves.
An electric car you can recharge in 10 minutes changes everything.
Reportedly, they have 25k+ 90% DOD lifecycle and don't seem to even really be affected by drawing down to 0. If true, these batteries will outlast almost anything they are put in, and then the next important evolution will be a standardized cell. As machines wear out, transferring the old cells to new uses will be good. From a live aboard or van dweller perspective, I could size a battery bank to last 3 days. That battery bank would therefore be discharged 33.33% a day on average. That gives me 205 years of use. Assuming they're wrong by 75% and it lasts only 25% as well. That still means the battery will outlive me. It will certainly outlive the technology it is attached to. Look at 1971 to today...

[owly]

Human population levels and our insanely paced consumption society must ultimately change or collapse. Our very prosperity which is the result of this consumer based society and incredible levels of innovation has resulted in incredible levels of consumption & waste unimaginable just a few centuries back. Things are produced knowing & depending on them becoming obsolete or failing, entering the waste stream in just a few years and being replaced by something else new and wonderful. The first car I ever bought back in '72 was better in many ways than the vehicles I own today. Automotive progress hit the wall somewhere in the late '90s IMHO, where improvements are incremental, at best, often adding complexity and maintenance issues, and features I simply do not want. There really is nothing except planned obsolescence and consumer seduction driving the market. Battery degradation is about the only thing other than wrecked cars to drive the marked for EVs once there is widespread adoption. Every other component should require far less maintenance.
Sailboats haven't progressed much in many years either... the big progress items are of somewhat debatable value... like sandwich construction which is often so poorly done as to be a liability. Multihulls have improved in some significant way, but mostly are just garbaged up with household type appliances &c making them into floating condos. Outboards are about the only place where we've seen major improvements, but most sailboats don't use outboards except on dinghies.



In any case changing the products we consume wantonly and excessively will not solve any of our problems...... nor will people or industry change in all probability... that points toward eventualities I don't like to think about.