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Old 22-10-2021, 19:19   #1
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40 containers dumped at mouth of Juan de Fuca

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...rait-1.6222341
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Old 22-10-2021, 20:27   #2
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Re: 40 containers dumped at mouth of Juan de Fuca

Maybe not "dumped", maybe "lost" -- at least until we know what failed. Just because "dumped" implies purposefully loosing them, and I'm pretty sure nobody wants to loose them in a culpable way. Pretty sure they fell away when something broke.

They're in an awful place, though, aren't they.

Reminds me of a conversation overheard on the HF radio one time. Soviet vessel (yes, it was a long time ago), deep bass voice, told us that they were a ship (unlike us, the tiny sailboat), and not afraid of the typhoon.

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Old 22-10-2021, 20:36   #3
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Re: 40 containers dumped at mouth of Juan de Fuca

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Originally Posted by JPA Cate View Post
Maybe not "dumped", maybe "lost" -- at least until we know what failed. Just because "dumped" implies purposefully loosing them, and I'm pretty sure nobody wants to loose them in a culpable way. Pretty sure they fell away when something broke.

They're in an awful place, though, aren't they.

Reminds me of a conversation overheard on the HF radio one time. Soviet vessel (yes, it was a long time ago), deep bass voice, told us that they were a ship (unlike us, the tiny sailboat), and not afraid of the typhoon.

Ann
Lost is a better term than dumped.
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Old 22-10-2021, 21:12   #4
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Re: 40 containers dumped at mouth of Juan de Fuca

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Maybe not "dumped", maybe "lost" -- at least until we know what failed. Just because "dumped" implies purposefully loosing them, and I'm pretty sure nobody wants to loose them in a culpable way. Pretty sure they fell away when something broke.

They're in an awful place, though, aren't they.

Reminds me of a conversation overheard on the HF radio one time. Soviet vessel (yes, it was a long time ago), deep bass voice, told us that they were a ship (unlike us, the tiny sailboat), and not afraid of the typhoon.

Ann
Still, no mention of responsibility for any damage or loss of life that might occur if these containers are struck by any other vessel, particularly a small vessel.

Of course the reporter would be oblivious of that issue.

In my view the captain of the ship, the shipping company, and their insurers, should be required to post a performance bond, and the ship impounded until such bond is paid, against any subsequent damages caused (like $100 million).

Otherwise, "So sad, lost 40 containers, notify the insurers. Meanwhile we're off to pick up another load".
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Old 22-10-2021, 23:10   #5
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Re: 40 containers dumped at mouth of Juan de Fuca

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Still, no mention of responsibility for any damage or loss of life that might occur if these containers are struck by any other vessel, particularly a small vessel.

Of course the reporter would be oblivious of that issue.

In my view the captain of the ship, the shipping company, and their insurers, should be required to post a performance bond, and the ship impounded until such bond is paid, against any subsequent damages caused (like $100 million).

Otherwise, "So sad, lost 40 containers, notify the insurers. Meanwhile we're off to pick up another load".

Out of curiosity, how would you feel about posting a bond prior to you venturing offshore, just in case you required assistance after encountering adverse weather that caused the loss of or damage to your vessel and possible damage or pollution to other vessels or infrastructure?.
As the saying goes, sometimes s**t happens.
As to impounding , a prudent ship owner would either up the prices for cartage or cease servicing that port, either way the precious imported product either becomes more expensive or extremely difficult to obtain, either way you and I shoulder the cost.
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Old 23-10-2021, 06:54   #6
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Re: 40 containers dumped at mouth of Juan de Fuca

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Out of curiosity, how would you feel about posting a bond prior to you venturing offshore, just in case you required assistance after encountering adverse weather that caused the loss of or damage to your vessel and possible damage or pollution to other vessels or infrastructure?.
As the saying goes, sometimes s**t happens.
As to impounding , a prudent ship owner would either up the prices for cartage or cease servicing that port, either way the precious imported product either becomes more expensive or extremely difficult to obtain, either way you and I shoulder the cost.
Apples to oranges, Uncle Bob, you're scenario takes place before the event.

YES, we should shoulder the cost of damages caused by the shipment of the goods we buy.

AND, I do feel it is entirely proper and just if I had to post a bond after my vessel goes ashore to ensure that I clean up the environmental or other damage it causes. In fact I am required to pay for the clean-up in that event, the shipper does not pay if a sailboat hits one of his lost containers and sinks. (Who knows?)

AND your justification is that such bond and impoundment would raise the cost of consumer goods, etc? Well, that is such a poor reason. You are saying that we should to ignore the potential cost or losses to other navigation in order to keep our consumer costs down. That is like saying we should let factories dump dangerous chemicals into rivers because it would make the cost of their manufactured goods more expensive to prevent it, and if it caused cancer or death to someone down stream, well, part of the cost of doing business.

As for saying that sometimes s**t happens? Containers fall off in heavy weather because they are not adequately secured or the ship is overloaded. It is tolerated because there is no penaltly and whomever gets hurt by hitting them won't likely live to tell the tale. Imposing a requirement to post a bond or pay a fine for arriving without all of your cargo would force shippers to do more to prevent it, and it THAT is the cost of shipping goods, so be it.

I don't get why we should allow shippers to get off the hook for possible damage their lost containers cause just to keep goods from China cheaper.
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Old 23-10-2021, 07:27   #7
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Re: 40 containers dumped at mouth of Juan de Fuca

i am at a loss. in the 70s nixon administration secrettly retrieved a russian sub at great depths. we have huge cranes and tow ships and technology to deal with this. why cant we go out there retrieve these containers or sink them ...navy target practice...send the bill to the company with a surge charge? no pay...cant use our ports. what am my missing here ...what ? im sure most of these companies have parent companies that have deep pockets...charge them or will be a big tarriff or band you from bring yiur stuff over. we. need government with balls...we can afford to leave billions of military equiptment with our enemies in the middle east....but we cant take care of a few containers tgat can easily sink our boats and cause great harm...
imho
abe
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Old 23-10-2021, 07:57   #8
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Re: 40 containers dumped at mouth of Juan de Fuca

Jack Dale said: "Lost is a better term than dumped."

Indeed! The CBC piece was careful in the choice of words. I see the words "lost" and "fell". Nowhere did I see the word "dumped".

Auntie CBS is one of the last strongholds of responsible journalism in this 'ere Colony. Let us give thanks :-)!

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Old 23-10-2021, 10:28   #9
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40 Containers overboard...

You shouldn't be sailing the West Coast right now anyway but, 40 containers overboard and floating...:
https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/app...BJuudpW-Jeiv2A
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Old 23-10-2021, 21:09   #10
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Re: 40 Containers overboard...

https://globalnews.ca/news/8292259/l...-zim-kingston/
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Old 23-10-2021, 21:10   #11
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40 containers dumped at mouth of Juan de Fuca

https://globalnews.ca/news/8292259/l...-zim-kingston/
Now the ship is on fire!
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Old 23-10-2021, 21:51   #12
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Re: 40 containers dumped at mouth of Juan de Fuca

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Originally Posted by wingssail View Post
Apples to oranges, Uncle Bob, you're scenario takes place before the event.

YES, we should shoulder the cost of damages caused by the shipment of the goods we buy.

AND, I do feel it is entirely proper and just if I had to post a bond after my vessel goes ashore to ensure that I clean up the environmental or other damage it causes. In fact I am required to pay for the clean-up in that event, the shipper does not pay if a sailboat hits one of his lost containers and sinks. (Who knows?)

AND your justification is that such bond and impoundment would raise the cost of consumer goods, etc? Well, that is such a poor reason. You are saying that we should to ignore the potential cost or losses to other navigation in order to keep our consumer costs down. That is like saying we should let factories dump dangerous chemicals into rivers because it would make the cost of their manufactured goods more expensive to prevent it, and if it caused cancer or death to someone down stream, well, part of the cost of doing business.

As for saying that sometimes s**t happens? Containers fall off in heavy weather because they are not adequately secured or the ship is overloaded. It is tolerated because there is no penaltly and whomever gets hurt by hitting them won't likely live to tell the tale. Imposing a requirement to post a bond or pay a fine for arriving without all of your cargo would force shippers to do more to prevent it, and it THAT is the cost of shipping goods, so be it.

I don't get why we should allow shippers to get off the hook for possible damage their lost containers cause just to keep goods from China cheaper.
Where to start? Firstly goods are shipped all around the world using containers, not just from china and not just "cheap".
Penalising a ship operator because the ship is not strong enough to withstand any possible conditions it may encounter in its life is just beyond ridiculous, as it would be to demand that motor vehicles be built to withstand any possible accident.
Extreme weather regularly causes maritime losses and damage, has done for generations and will do for ever more.
Shipping is just like any other business, an operator endeavours to avoid and mitigate problems but sometimes s**t happens, always has and always will. Doesn't make it right but it is the reality. Would I be happy if I hit a stray container?, no of course not nor would I wish it on anyone but large financial imposts do little to mitigate the problem. To my mind the suggestion put forward by another poster that the port be closed to a problem ship operator is more likely to achieve a desirable outcome.
Still the fact remains that extreme weather often cannot be accurately predicted, not now and probably not in the foreseeable future.
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Old 24-10-2021, 03:01   #13
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Re: 40 Containers overboard...

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The Canadian Coast Guard, and the Joint Rescue Coordination Centre (JRCC), in B.C., have evacuated 16 crew members, from a container ship, the MV “Zim Kingston”, anchored off Victoria, after a fire began spreading, in containers on board [not the ship, itself], Saturday.
The Coast Guard said “Zim Kingston” is carrying more than 52,000 kilograms of xanthates, which includes potassium amylxanthate [toxic & spontaneously combustible], housed in two of the containers that are on fire, aboard the ship.
The ship first ran into trouble Friday, when it lost 40 of its shipping containers in rough seas, 70 kilometres west of the Juan de Fuca Strait. The Canadian Coast Guard said it was working with its U.S. counterpart to track the 40 containers that had fallen overboard, saying they pose a significant risk to mariners. Late Saturday, the containers were about 22 kilometres off the west coast of Vancouver Island, near Bamfield.
More ➥ https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...fire-1.6222815

Video ➥ https://twitter.com/i/status/1452053806632476673
And ➥ https://twitter.com/hashtag/ZimKings...=hashtag_click
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Old 24-10-2021, 10:12   #14
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Re: 40 containers dumped at mouth of Juan de Fuca

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Originally Posted by Uncle Bob View Post
Where to start? Firstly goods are shipped all around the world using containers, not just from china and not just "cheap".
Penalising a ship operator because the ship is not strong enough to withstand any possible conditions it may encounter in its life is just beyond ridiculous, as it would be to demand that motor vehicles be built to withstand any possible accident.
Extreme weather regularly causes maritime losses and damage, has done for generations and will do for ever more.
Shipping is just like any other business, an operator endeavours to avoid and mitigate problems but sometimes s**t happens, always has and always will. Doesn't make it right but it is the reality. Would I be happy if I hit a stray container?, no of course not nor would I wish it on anyone but large financial imposts do little to mitigate the problem. To my mind the suggestion put forward by another poster that the port be closed to a problem ship operator is more likely to achieve a desirable outcome.
Still the fact remains that extreme weather often cannot be accurately predicted, not now and probably not in the foreseeable future.
I disagree, have you seen how high they stack the containers? It's poor seamanship at a minimum. And obviously they are not "secured". This may be a better example of your thinking:
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Old 24-10-2021, 10:21   #15
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Re: 40 containers dumped at mouth of Juan de Fuca

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I disagree, have you seen how high they stack the containers? It's poor seamanship at a minimum. And obviously they are not "secured". This may be a better example of your thinking:


I canít imagine a ships master nor an underwriter allowing a voyage without following basic guidelines for container securement. There are literally volumes written about securing containers.

https://www.containerhandbuch.de/chb..._01_03_02.html
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