Your opinion of classic VS Modern Boat Design

[SV Windrush II]

Originally Posted by Polux

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The boat from Beneteau with the same size is the Oceanis 41.1, the base price at the factory is 145 700 euros and that includes sails. Off course more equipment will be needed and a decently equipped boat with electronics will cost considerably more, about 40 000 euros more without transportation or VAT.

A Pogo 12.50 with swing keel costs standard at the shipyard costs 211 249 € (the version with the fixed keel that sells very little will cost less), the boat comes without sails and for having it reasonably equipped it cost more than the 40 000 euros that are needed for the Oceanis. These are prices without Tax. In Europe you have to join to each boat 19 to 23% depending on the country. With VAT the Pogo 12.50 costs in Europe over 300 000 euros..

So if I was to get a Pogo, to have enough room for us to be happy with it we would need the Pogo 50 which I calculated out from their web site would cost me about $550,000 base price and I do not think it includes sails.

I found a new Jeanneau 50DS for $236,242 ready to go. Of course I would fit it out for offshore sailing so even if I throw in another $50k I'm still way under Pogo price, and yes I would be trading performance and quality, with livability and comfort.

2017 Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 50 DS Sail New and Used Boats for

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by Polux

A Pogo 12.50 for that price would be nice and why are you comparing it with a 43ft? The Pogo 12.50 is a bit misleading since it is a 40ft class boat sharing the hull with the previous 40class racer from Pogo.

The Vision 43 seems that was discontinued? as well as the 48? I only see now on Beneteau site the Senses 51 and 57.

The boat from Beneteau with the same size is the Oceanis 41.1, the base price at the factory is 145 700 euros and that includes sails. Off course more equipment will be needed and a decently equipped boat with electronics will cost considerably more, about 40 000 euros more without transportation or VAT.

A Pogo 12.50 with swing keel costs standard at the shipyard costs 211 249 € (the version with the fixed keel that sells very little will cost less), the boat comes without sails and for having it reasonably equipped it cost more than the 40 000 euros that are needed for the Oceanis. These are prices without Tax. In Europe you have to join to each boat 19 to 23% depending on the country. With VAT the Pogo 12.50 costs in Europe over 300 000 euros.

And even so it is not expensive. There are no comparison between the way the Pogo is built and the Oceanis is built. The quality and the quantity of the sail hardware is not also comparable, in quality or price. Simply it is not possible to build a 40ft boat that displaces 5.5T for the same price of one that displaces 8777kg, neither it cab be built the same way.

Mostly I didn't use the 41.1 because I forgot about it. But it's bare boat asking price with today's exchange rate is $207,000usd at least if you buy the lowest trim version that is imported to the US. Aparently there is a lower trim version available, but since it doesn't include things like running water, and 110/220v electrical service it isn't a realistic option except to someone who plans to just add it all themselves.

Finding a complete list of included equipment has proven impossible from either builder, but there are major differences in what is include do with the base price of each boat.

The Pogo comes with a carbon mast, which allows you to getaway without needing a backstay or runners, the Pogo comes with a folding prop versus the fixed on the B, All Harken deck gear instead of Lewmar (a definite improvement in my eyes), and a lifting lead keel for $220,000 at today she exchange rates.

How much is a carbon mast worth? How much is the lifting keel worth?

I would not argue that the Pogo is going to be less, but by the time you option them out reasonably I don't think the price difference is going to be all that much. Reasonably outfitted the Pogo seems to be selling for around $300k, and the 41.1 for about $50k less.

[robert sailor]

I think the issue here is that a 40 Pogo is just not big enough for serious cruising as you'd overload it and the performance simply wouldn't be there. The Pogo 50 is a better size to try to have it all but you'd still have to be really careful with loading it.

[brownoarsman]

Does anyone have a payload number for the Pogo 40? Discussions of overloading would be more fruitful if one knew what you had to give up to meet the payload target (or at least not exceed it by much). For instance, are we talking about rope rode vs chain, a light inflatable vs a RIB, having to freeze dry all food, or just not packing four sets of evening dress for the yacht club parties?

[Sandero]

Pogo 40 doesn't look the least bit like a cruising boat below decks. I don't care how fast it sails... not my idea of a cruising cabin...

[robert sailor]

The Pogo 40 could be loaded like any other 40 and it would then sail like any other 40 but if it's kept light then the boat has the ability to plane in winds as low as 15 knots. As it gets heavier it would need stronger and stronger winds in order to exceed it's hull speeds. Polux might have some numbers

[brownoarsman]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

The Pogo 40 could be loaded like any other 40

Yes, it could be, but would you load it like any other 40? I think we all know cruisers who are carrying a lot more weight than they strictly need to (e.g. six months of canned goods). The crux of the question is what compromises do you have to make to keep her fast? Are they critical, such as choice of anchor rode, or are they things one may not miss?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Sandero]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

The Pogo 40 could be loaded like any other 40 and it would then sail like any other 40 but if it's kept light then the boat has the ability to plane in winds as low as 15 knots. As it gets heavier it would need stronger and stronger winds in order to exceed it's hull speeds. Polux might have some numbers

No it can't... it doesn't appear to have the locker space...

[Pelagic]

Technically it is called 'Bale Capacity' which is loosely defined as
the measurement of a vessel's ability to carry cargo inside any free space which is not part of the accommodation
(Dry storage in bilges etc)

For some that is more important than speed.

[brownoarsman]

Originally Posted by TJ D

To the weight, we're not really terribly austere on board, but we are mindful not to carry anything more than we need. I would say that we're running around with about half of the weight that we used to, but we aren't missing anything, really. It's more about a change in mindset. I actually find it liberating, keeping the boat free of clutter and unnecessary crap.

But, you're absolutely right, it's silly to load up a modern boat to the gills with heavy gear. The impact will be far more drastic than with a more traditional boat. One would be better off just getting the heavyweight if that's the plan.

TJ

TJ, you might have some perspective around the choices made on weight loading a fast boat, though admittedly the Pogo 40 is shorter than yours. When you were choosing, did you purposefully buy a longer boat than you and your partner would have otherwise desired in order to get more load carrying capacity? Have you had to make any sacrifices that would cause cruisers real pain, such as rode type, dinghy type, outboard size, etc.? Or do you think you would have if you had bought a fast boat in the 40' size range?

[barnakiel]

If a 40 ft performance cruiser is not big enough for one then maybe it is time to consider digging into wikipedia for diogenes syndrome?

Or else go get yourself a Cigale, these offer equal performance and come in 14 meter models and longer (16m and 20m, I think). There are also Atlantic boats of similar performance starting at 36' and going all the way up to at least 50'. All these are cruising boats, not racers.

Just before you jump, make sure you have the fitness, stamina and guts to operate a performance oriented cruising boat in anything above 20 knots of wind. A fine performance-cruiser of 40' is already quite a handful.

Same waterline length, a performance cruising mainsail may be easily 3 times the area of a Mariner's one. Can you handle this much?

b.

[TJ D]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

TJ, you might have some perspective around the choices made on weight loading a fast boat, though admittedly the Pogo 40 is shorter than yours. When you were choosing, did you purposefully buy a longer boat than you and your partner would have otherwise desired in order to get more load carrying capacity? Have you had to make any sacrifices that would cause cruisers real pain, such as rode type, dinghy type, outboard size, etc.? Or do you think you would have if you had bought a fast boat in the 40' size range?

Well, the length does help a lot in being more forgiving on the weight front. Every boat sort of has to have the same gear, and the difference in actual weight between the ground tackle, dinghy, systems between a 40 and our boat is not that great. So, the impact is definitely less for us.

The truth is that we weren't looking for a 55' boat. We had sort of put our cap at 50', but we realized that Rocket Science ticked all of our boxes in spades, (nothing else we were looking at even came close to the spec of that one) and we got a hell of a good deal to boot.

Anyway, most of the sacrifice I'm talking about is in toys, spares, and tools. I previously had a pretty bad habit of having 2-3 of everything, and we don't do that now.

But, we have a fridge, freezer, watermaker, 2 anchors and rodes (rocna and a fortress-275' chain on one and combo on the other)

We kept the dinghy light, and also have a smaller outboard, but this is by choice. I got tired of lugging the 9.9 4 stroke around, so we stuck a 4hp on and it suits us fine. We're not in such a hurry that we need to plane.

We try to keep food stocks at just what we need, remove packaging, etc. Very few cans. We carry far fewer packaged drinks on board-sodas/beer, etc. Almost everything we drink is coming from filtered tank water.

Tanks are generally kept to just what we need, plus a healthy reserve.

We've ditched our books for the most part. We're digital, mostly. But we do carry paper charts.

Really, it's just a lot of small stuff. I would say that we're sort of stocked and equipped the way a 38-40 footer would be.

We don't have nearly the equipment that would typically be found on a 55' cruiser. No generator, dive compressor, washing machine, stuff like that. We don't need it.

All that said, it would be MUCH harder to have what most of us would consider the minimum of cruising gear on something like a 40 foot ultralight without really making a mess of performance.

We displace a very light 24,000 lbs dry, I'm not sure what a Pogo 40 weighs, maybe just over half that? It would be really hard to keep the gear weight to the same percentage of displacement that we're sailing at.

[brownoarsman]

Thanks for your detailed reply, TJ! It sounds like you've already taken out the optional nice-to-haves and superfluous, so for the 40', it really does come down to rope vs chain rode, that's all I can think of to further shed substantial weight!

Even the diesels are small for the size range on the Pogo line, it seems to me. If I recall, the 30' has a 13 HP, which can probably be justified on the lighter weight and maybe less wetted surface, but I believe other 30' have motors in the 20hp plus range now.

[TJ D]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

If a 40 ft performance cruiser is not big enough for one then maybe it is time to consider digging into wikipedia for diogenes syndrome?

Or else go get yourself a Cigale, these offer equal performance and come in 14 meter models and longer (16m and 20m, I think). There are also Atlantic boats of similar performance starting at 36' and going all the way up to at least 50'. All these are cruising boats, not racers.

Just before you jump, make sure you have the fitness, stamina and guts to operate a performance oriented cruising boat in anything above 20 knots of wind. A fine performance-cruiser of 40' is already quite a handful.

Same waterline length, a performance cruising mainsail may be easily 3 times the area of a Mariner's one. Can you handle this much?

b.

Here's the thing, though. The true performance boat weighs so much less than a heavy cruiser that the loads are really much lighter than most expect, especially when you're sailing conservatively. Our current boat weighs 16,000 pounds LESS than the steel 43 footer it replaced.

So, if you want to push the envelope and run around on a plane whenever you can, things can get very heavily loaded indeed. And a bit scary too. But this is a choice that doesn't have to be made.

All in all, we're not working harder than we did on the 43. Unless we want to.

I was once accused by a racer who crewed with us of sailing my boat like an Island Packet and not like the thoroughbred she is. I took this as a compliment, though it was not meant to be. We were sailing at 10 knots with basically zero effort when this was said. Good enough for me. Could we have kicked it up to 15 knots? Yes, but that's not the point for us. When we bought RS, we wanted regular 200 mile days while the boat was sailing on auto, and us playing with the dog in the cockpit.

Polux would have definitely pointed out that the boat was being poorly sailed if we were in the ARC. And that's ok. We're happy with 10+

The high speed/high load/increased risk is just something that's done occasionally. The rest of the time, it's all very civilized, and no more taxing than our previous boats.

It's all in the approach, friends. The potential for performance doesn't mean you have to be on the edge all the time. Or ever. And you're still sailing faster than almost all the other cruisers.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

(...)

Even the diesels are small for the size range on the Pogo line, it seems to me. If I recall, the 30' has a 13 HP, which can probably be justified on the lighter weight and maybe less wetted surface, but I believe other 30' have motors in the 20hp plus range now.

They are sailing boats. The engine is just an auxiliary. You use it to get in and out of the marina.

Sure a heavier boat needs a bigger donkey. A bigger donkey needs a bigger tank. This makes a heavier boat and so you want bigger water tank and bigger batteries. Then comes that watermaker and what the heck now that you have a watermaker why not a washer and an ice maker ...

Yep. As you said, a light boat that sails very well. No need for a bigger engine.

Alternatives: a Nauticat with a 225 hp Perkins.

b.