Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-08-2019, 04:44   #16
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The boat - New Bern, NC, USA; Us - Kingsport, TN, USA
Boat: 1988 Pacific Seacraft 34
Posts: 1,297
Re: Yanmar-Kanzaki clutch slipping

You might want to print these Yanmar service bulletins and give a copy to your mechanic.
From February 8, 2008 http://www.shaftlok.com/YANMAR_MSA08...al+Sailing.pdf
and from October 11, 2011 https://j109.org/docs/yanmar_technic...tqtb11-017.pdf .

Bill
wsmurdoch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2019, 05:06   #17
Registered User
 
AnglaisInHull's Avatar

Join Date: May 2015
Location: Sailing Lake Ontario
Boat: Mirage 35
Posts: 1,056
Re: Yanmar-Kanzaki clutch slipping

Thank you, Bill. It's not exactly the same model number (mine claims to be a Tuff Torq TTMC35A) but it's close enough that I suspect the recommendations stand.

It's the first definitive, from the manufacturer, information that I've seen on this subject so far.

__________________
My boat is like me. People look, and say "... pretty good shape ... for its age ..."
AnglaisInHull is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2019, 08:14   #18
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Boat: Boatless at the moment
Posts: 866
Re: Yanmar-Kanzaki clutch slipping

I have the service manual for this KM series of transmissions. Unfortunately the file size exceeds the upload limit for this site. It's in .pdf format and if you have interest PM me with your email address and I'll send it to you.
kenbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2019, 16:22   #19
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Auckland, NZ
Boat: Compass 790 , 7.9 metres or 26 ft
Posts: 2,731
Re: Yanmar-Kanzaki clutch slipping

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark lennoc View Post
Okay guys, I believe you. No more sailing in reverse!

I will be changing the oil and see if that helps.

Also, where do you find the manual?

Thanks
If you go to the link Kenbo gave you in post #7 & read thru the replies you will find another link that will give you the transmission manual.
You may need to access the owners/operators manual if you wish to confirm the no sailing in reverse rule.
Don't forget to thank Kenbo
Compass790 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2019, 00:38   #20
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Boat: Island Packet 40
Posts: 5,614
Images: 7
Re: Yanmar-Kanzaki clutch slipping

Not sure what the gearbox was but I had a Yanmar in my old boat which began to show the symptoms you describe and when I disassembled the gearbox I found that the problem was that a bellvue spring had slightly worn into a thrust washer and consequently the cone was able to slightly misalign and was prevented from fully engaging. I turned the thrust washer around and it solved the problem.
RaymondR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2019, 02:28   #21
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: London
Boat: Oyster 49
Posts: 219
Re: Yanmar-Kanzaki clutch slipping

I had the problem with the gearbox slipping when in reverse. Not ideal in the med when reversing into a berth and wanting to slow down and stop!

The short version of the story is that a Yanmar man in Croatia took the box out. He put a stronger spring in that keeps the cones engaged and he enlarged the hole that allows oil out from between the cones when they come together. I have a feeling that enlarging the drainage hole was the key. Having had this done, I have had no more problems
TudorSailor
Tudorsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2019, 07:43   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 21
Re: Yanmar-Kanzaki clutch slipping

I changed the oil yesterday in the gear box and although it looked pretty clean on the dipstick it looked very dark in a glass jar. I will see how this works out but if not then out comes the kit and kaboodle. interesting comments from Raymond and Tudor and if I end up going into the gear box I will definitely make those changes.
Thanks again to everybody that has sent along a comment - it is really great to have this network of helpful souls.
mark lennoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2019, 09:49   #23
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Boat: Boatless at the moment
Posts: 866
Re: Yanmar-Kanzaki clutch slipping

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark lennoc View Post
I changed the oil yesterday in the gear box and although it looked pretty clean on the dipstick it looked very dark in a glass jar. I will see how this works out but if not then out comes the kit and kaboodle. interesting comments from Raymond and Tudor and if I end up going into the gear box I will definitely make those changes.
Thanks again to everybody that has sent along a comment - it is really great to have this network of helpful souls.
Mark,

Both Raymond and Tudor have "a" type or down angle gearboxes. If you have a "p" or parallel output shaft you will not have springs. Also if Yanmar/Kanzaki/Tuff Torque engineers thought more powerful springs were better they would have fitted them in the first place. These are elegantly designed machines where the motto "more is better" doesn't always apply. If you split the cases, do it right, you won't regret it.

As an aside, cone clutch gearboxes like to be shifted crisply and cleanly. You don't have to wait for the revs to drop in neutral, this is another source of premature cone wear.

Your gearbox takes .5l liter of SAE 20 or 30 non detergent motor oil. 20W if you're in moderate or cold climes, 30W if in the tropics. DO NOT overfill.
kenbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2019, 18:32   #24
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 21
Re: Yanmar-Kanzaki clutch slipping

Great info Kenbo! I guess I would need to tell if I have the a or the p type gearbox. I strained the used oil from the gearbox through a pair of my dear old dad’s very white underwear and there were a small amount black particles, definitely not metal.

I am hoping that the oil changes might help but if not then I will have to remove the whole business and take it to that mechanic that will have a copy of the manual by the. Yes, I would love to get a copy from you so will send you my e mail address.
Thanks very much.

Here is my e mail address. mark2lennox@gmail.com

Mark
mark lennoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2019, 13:45   #25
Registered User
 
Pete O Static's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Canada and Caribbean
Boat: Jeanneau 36 and C&C 29 MkII
Posts: 178
Re: Yanmar-Kanzaki clutch slipping


I have a 2011 Jeanneau which typically share the same engines and transmissions as Beneteau. Mine is a 3YM30 with a Kanzaki transmission, shaft drive.


FWIW There is a great big factory installed placard at the helm to lock the prop under sail by selecting "Reverse" only, as selecting "Forward" may damage transmission.


So although any advice on here is well intended, I would consult Yanmar for your specific power train.
Pete O Static is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2019, 15:13   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 21
Re: Yanmar-Kanzaki clutch slipping

Hi Pete
So you are saying that your plaque says itís okay to sail with the throttle in reverse. What about leaving it in neutral?
This seems to be contrary to what people have been saying so far. I will try to get an answer from a Yanmar mechanic if possible.
Thanks for the info Pete
mark lennoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2019, 15:50   #27
Registered User
 
Pete O Static's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Canada and Caribbean
Boat: Jeanneau 36 and C&C 29 MkII
Posts: 178
Re: Yanmar-Kanzaki clutch slipping

Mark


My placard says that if you wish to stop the shaft from turning while under sail, you MUST use reverse only. FWD will damage the transmission.

Yes you can leave it in neutral but then you are stuck listening to the transmission as it free wheels. I have a folding prop, so to lock the shaft, I use reverse as per the placard.

As I said, Yanmar 3YM30, shaft drive, in a late Model Jeanneau 36. So based on the conflicting reports here, It might be wise to consult Beneteau directly.
Pete O Static is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2019, 15:58   #28
Moderator Emeritus
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Jacksonville/ out cruising
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 31,351
Yanmar-Kanzaki clutch slipping

There are different types of Kanzaki transmissions out there, some like mine have clutch packs, and at least on mine sailing in reverse is OK.
I believe but am not sure that the clutch pack transmissions use automatic transmission oil.
In other words just because itís OK on one Kanzaki transmission, does not mean itís OK for all.
However I believe that all Kanzaki transmissions wonít be harmed by sailing in neutral.
A folding / feathering prop is one way to sail in neutral and not have the shaft rotate, a shaft lock is another. Sometimes it takes a momentary pause in reverse to feather the prop.
Iíve seen one member post that he had made a shaft brake that used a golf tee as a lock, that way if he forgot to unlock the brake, no harm was done.
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2019, 18:24   #29
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Boat: Island Packet 40
Posts: 5,614
Images: 7
Re: Yanmar-Kanzaki clutch slipping

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete O Static View Post

I have a 2011 Jeanneau which typically share the same engines and transmissions as Beneteau. Mine is a 3YM30 with a Kanzaki transmission, shaft drive.


FWIW There is a great big factory installed placard at the helm to lock the prop under sail by selecting "Reverse" only, as selecting "Forward" may damage transmission.


So although any advice on here is well intended, I would consult Yanmar for your specific power train.

What is going on in your cone clutch gearbox is the double cone is sliding backwards and forwards on a helical spline when you shift gears. The spline is helical so that the more torque that is placed on the clutch the harder the cone is driven along the helical spline into the cup of the clutch.

If you put the gearbox into forward to stop the prop from spinning whilst you are sailing the torque generated is in a direction which tries to wind the cone out of the cup. Consequently the cup and cone will try to disengage and when the friction becomes low enough the cone will slip in the cup. The slipping will generate heat and wear consequently leading to early failure.

However, by placing the gearbox into reverse the torque generated by the propeller whilst sailing acts in a direction which will tend to "screw" the cone along the helical spline and force the cone tighter into the cup - the faster you sail, the more torque is generated and the greater the "stopping" ie. rotational force the clutch is able to withstand.

I actually managed to turn my engine over once when it was over-propped sailing-surfing down a monster building swell near Rotnest Island. Scared the hell out of me.

The springs on the clutch assembly are cup shaped washers which I believe are called "Bellvue" springs. They are pre-loaded against disk shaped "thrust washers". The functional purpose of this arrangement is to unsure that the forward and reverse cups do not get misaligned. That is that the cups engage with the cones all around their conical circumferences when engaging. If the cups and cones only become partially engaged at a single point on their circumferences insufficient friction will be generated and the cone will not be driven along the helical spline sufficiently to fully engage the clutch. Hence the phenomenom of the slipping clutch.

Bellvue springs have only a minimal amount of "spring" and hence only a very small amount of wear into the face of the thrust washer is required to negate their "springing" action.

I hope all that's clear to you folk.
RaymondR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2019, 14:29   #30
Registered User
 
AnglaisInHull's Avatar

Join Date: May 2015
Location: Sailing Lake Ontario
Boat: Mirage 35
Posts: 1,056
Re: Yanmar-Kanzaki clutch slipping

So, with the help of folks on this thread, I finally got real information on my transmission (Kanzaki MC 35A2-A3, aka Yanmar KM35A2). The information in Yanmar technical bulletins clearly states that with a folding or feathering prop one should shift briefly into reverse to fold the prop, then back into neutral. I assumed that an Autoprop counted as either folding or feathering.

So I tried it. Shifted into reverse; it jammed there. Dropped speed, started the engine with the tranny in reverse, put it back in neutral.

New plan: I'll leave it in neutral when sailing, the prop may fold / feather or it may not. I'll stop worrying about it.

RANT
I can't believe how hard it is to get information about some marine parts. I tried for two years to find out where this transmission came from and get any info about it. And then the Yanmar technical bulletin starts with a complaint about the customers: "We keep getting questions about ..." Well, if you actually put this kind of information on your website maybe people would stop asking the same question all the time. Or if you had a dealer network that knew something about the parts and was willing to talk to people.

And don't get me on about Nanni engines.
/rant
__________________
My boat is like me. People look, and say "... pretty good shape ... for its age ..."
AnglaisInHull is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
clutch, kanzaki, yanmar

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Slipping Yanmar SD50 Cone Clutch matauri500 Propellers & Drive Systems 34 01-03-2022 13:17
Yanmar SD31 dog-clutch slipping? Jon Hacking Propellers & Drive Systems 0 25-07-2019 23:31
Kanzaki KH18 Slipping Transmission and Oil Choice mitbeaver Propellers & Drive Systems 2 30-03-2011 18:23
Windlass Clutch Is Slipping bobs Construction, Maintenance & Refit 11 05-09-2009 05:56

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 13:40.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.