Yanmar 1GM10 vs Volvo Penta D1-13?

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by warrior 90

Well, I would say there is a little more to that.
Engine life is measured by run time hours.
Engine coolant is less corrosive then salt water.
Close loop cooling systems allow to control the engine temperature and thereby use oils designed for different temperature range and viscosity rates that improve lubrication.

This is all true however the manufacturer's recommended oil requirements is pretty basic. The raw water cooled Yanmar engines need only mono weight SAE30 API CD. This is stuff used in small air cooled Briggs and Stratton engines etc. It is very old specification and almost every common engine oil exceeds that.

I don't think lubrication requirements are really affected by the colder running raw water cooling.

Certainly efficiency may be slightly affected and AFAIK, emissions are adversity affected by the cooler engine temperatures.

[Primal Alliance]

2 things. I'll ask the guy at Auxiliary Engines about hydrochloric acid vs sulfuric. As a medical doctor I had to study chemistry quite a bit in school. That doesn't make me a chemist, but I'd be surprised if he thought the former was any better than the latter That said, I think your advice about how to get any such solution to run through the raw water cooled engine makes sense. But the owner could only do it for a short time until the solution came to operating temperature and then he'd have to shut the engine down, let it cool off, and start it again. Ouch if he let it run too long.

As for the Volvo, I think you're making my point. Were the batteries to be low and this fellow started that engine, were the alternator put out a lot of amps, it would in fact be overstressing the engine. Yes, you would think were that to be the case{and it may not, but I'd worry about it}that Volvo would have realized that. Since, if this is now a well designed engine, it took them years to figure how to do that, I'm not sure they've figured this out either.

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by Primal Alliance

As for the Volvo, I think you're making my point. Were the batteries to be low and this fellow started that engine, were the alternator put out a lot of amps, it would in fact be overstressing the engine. Yes, you would think were that to be the case{and it may not, but I'd worry about it}that Volvo would have realized that. Since, if this is now a well designed engine, it took them years to figure how to do that, I'm not sure they've figured this out either.

To the first point I have no further comments. Fresh water cooling in saltwater for me is out of the question. The reality shows this is a big risk that I would not be willing to take while coolant systems are available of the shelf.

Regards to 115 amp alternator running with small engine there might be kind of a solution. The other day john61ct, a member here on CF mentioned the WAKE SPEED.
Read the following info. Have no experience with this regulator but what it would actually mean the way I understand it is ... it allows You to use full alternator potential from the engine while propulsion is not engaged and in charging only mode, and when propulsion is engaged allows to reduce the load of the alternator on the engine up to 50%.

Another member wrote......
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-207549-3.html
# 41 OCEAN PLANET
> the control/regulation system is truly impressive in regards to adjusting charging load to engine rpm to minimize fuel use while charging.

So there seems to be a regulator that can adapt to the different situations and specially to prevent small engine overloading by bigger alternators.

Wakespeed Products
WS 100 Multi-stage Voltage Regulator
> select the power level that´s best matched to Your engine and batteries. Power levels can be adjusted to 4 field percentages: 100%, 90%, 75%, 50%.
Selecting is as simple as turning the adjustment knob until the desired power level as indicated.

http://www.wakespeed.com/WS500quickstartguide.pdf
>>> Page 7
In addition, the regulator can be configured to a small alternator mode, which limits the maximum field potential to 75 percent. This can be used when battery capacity exceeds the alternator’s capabilities, or to protect smaller engines and belts from excessive alternator loads.

https://shop.marinehowto.com/product...ator-regulator

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Primal Alliance

2 things. I'll ask the guy at Auxiliary Engines about hydrochloric acid vs sulfuric. As a medical doctor I had to study chemistry quite a bit in school. That doesn't make me a chemist, but I'd be surprised if he thought the former was any better than the latter That said, I think your advice about how to get any such solution to run through the raw water cooled engine makes sense. But the owner could only do it for a short time until the solution came to operating temperature and then he'd have to shut the engine down, let it cool off, and start it again. Ouch if he let it run too long.

.......

I must not have explained it very well.

The engine is not running when you are circulating the acid through it. A small bilge pump in the bucket of the hydrochloric acid is the pumping the solution through the stationary engine. There is no heat involved. I also failed to mention that the thermostat is removed (as well as the aforementioned anodes) for the process. The solution does not go through the raw water pump either.

When you ask you acquaintance about the acid, ask him what he uses to descale a cast iron engine block/head in a raw water cooled engine and the method he uses. It is always useful to hear how others attend to such issues.

If he doesn't descale, please ask him why?

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Primal Alliance

......

As for the Volvo, I think you're making my point. Were the batteries to be low and this fellow started that engine, were the alternator put out a lot of amps, it would in fact be overstressing the engine. Yes, you would think were that to be the case{and it may not, but I'd worry about it}that Volvo would have realized that. Since, if this is now a well designed engine, it took them years to figure how to do that, I'm not sure they've figured this out either.

The engine can't really be overstressed in so far you can't drag more hp of it than the manufacturer designed to deliver. If the designer says it will deliver for x hp for y time, then it will do so.

The amount of power needed to drive the boat and the amount needed to drive the alternator will depend on the power budget of the operator and the boat.

Clearly if the boat needs all of the 13 hp available to move it, then there is no power left for the alternator however if the boat only needs say 5 hp, then there is 8 hp left for other things (i.e. alternator).

However as mentioned earlier, the positive aspect to this larger alternator relates more to the duty cycle of the charging requirements.

Say the OP typically needed 40 amps on average, then a 40 or 50 amp alternator will not suffice. They won't deliver the max amps continuously (i.e. they will overheat) whereas the 100+ amp alternator will run all day at 40 amps.

[Primal Alliance]

I'm beyond my expertise as to whether the alternator would or would not overload the 13hp Volvo if it can put out 115 peak amps. As for hydrochloric acid vs sulfuric acid, my full time diesel mechanic telling me sulfuric acid simply doesn't work, period, tells me that I'm enough of a chemist as a medical doctor that hydrochloric acid, being a water soluble solution, just as sulfuric acid is, isn't going to be any better. I'm not going to overtax the guy asking essentially the same question. He's been a small auxiliary sail boat engine mechanic all his life, is now in his early 60's, and I'm taking his word for it. You don't descale a raw water cooled engine block. It doesn't work. The stuff is in there, stays there, and eventually will end the engine's useful life. Its much cheaper to replace or clean out{I just did after 2000 hours on my 20 hp 3 cylinder fresh water cooled Yanmar}a heat exchanger. The trade off is the increased complexity and failure potential. I'll take it rather than throw a high hour engine that otherwise would continue to be serviceable.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Primal Alliance

...... You don't descale a raw water cooled engine block. It doesn't work. The stuff is in there, stays there, and eventually will end the engine's useful life. .......

Of course you can descale a raw water cooled engine and yes, it does work and the stuff does come out!

But hey, it isn't my position to convince you. You can believe it or not, I don't mind.

For other readers, here is some photos of a raw water cooled Yanmar 2QM head showing some reasonable scale build up. It is about 45 years old but I don't know how many times it had previously been descaled; maybe never, maybe not. You can see there other issues apart for the limescale but ignore them and focus on the limescale circled in red. I filled the water gallery in the head with 30% hydrochloric acid (muriatic acid) for about ten minutes. A lot bubbling and much CO2 given off and then a solid rinse. Scale mostly gone.

The scale is mostly calcium carbonate CaCO3 (deposited from the sea water); the same stuff used to form shellfish etc. Add hydrochloric acid HCl and the reaction gives CaCl2 + CO2 + H2O (calcium chloride + carbon dioxide + water). Calcium chloride is water soluble and washes away when rinsed.

The principle reason sulphuric acid is ineffectual (AFAIK) is because the calcium carbonate is attached to the cast iron and as the sulphuric acid reacts with it, it forms solid calcium sulphate which is deposited on the surface of the calcium carbonate. The calcium sulphate is insoluble in the sulphuric acid and so you end up with calcium carbonate coated in a layer of calcium sulphate, which stops the acid from getting at the carbonate and so stops the reaction.

[Primal Alliance]

Impressive enough pics and I retract my position of knowing enough about chemistry just because I studied it in college. That said, this end outcome, as impressive as it is, occurred from what I can see, on A DISSEMBLED ENGINE. That's a different outcome all together from trying to make it work on an assembled one using a bilge pump hook up that I would still worry about frying the engine using this acid or anything else. I remain of the opinion of my diesel mechanic unless this was accomplished on an installed engine and then it was dissembled. If so, we're both wrong.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Primal Alliance

Impressive enough pics and I retract my position of knowing enough about chemistry just because I studied it in college. That said, this end outcome, as impressive as it is, occurred from what I can see, on A DISSEMBLED ENGINE. That's a different outcome all together from trying to make it work on an assembled one using a bilge pump hook up that I would still worry about frying the engine using this acid or anything else. I remain of the opinion of my diesel mechanic unless this was accomplished on an installed engine and then it was dissembled. If so, we're both wrong.

Well yes, the pictures I showed is of a disassembled engine - I'm not smart enough to take pictures inside of an assembled engine. However the chemistry remains the same.

You do raise important points about doing such work on board with an assembled engine. Caution is needed and the safe use of the acid must be understood.

For regular mild descaling, I used vinegar for many years and although it wasn't tough enough for serious scale, it worked well for regular mild descaling. It did take time though - I would let it circulate for 24 hours at least.

The are plenty of other mild descaling fluids that I have seen recommended but as I have never tried them, I can't comment on their effectiveness.

It was only after using vinegar for awhile that I ventured into using a stronger acid (i.e. HCl). The upside is that it works faster, minutes not hours.

I can't comment on it's suitability for all raw water cooled engines, I have only used the method on cast iron Yanmars which are designed for raw water cooling. I would be wanting to know what other metals are in the engine water galleries before suggesting it's use on other engines.

Here is an after picture of the inside water jacket of a Yanmar YSE engine that was left soaking in vinegar for 48 hours. It isn't super clean but I guess 80 to 90% of the limescale was removed.

[Primal Alliance]

All I can say is that a full time diesel mechanic here in Seattle, who incidentally is a Yanmar dealer as well, has never had any luck descaling an intact engine. I can buy into what you're doing works on a disassembled engine. I don't know how the cost of removing an engine, taking it apart, descaling it, putting it back together{which in the best of hands is never as good as a new engine off the shelf}compares to simply replacing an old engine full of scale with a new one. But I wouldn't be surprised if the difference in money were close enough that it would strongly favor simply installing the new engine. In talking with him this morning, interestingly there are no 1GM10's available in North America any longer. They don't pass emissions test and are no longer available here.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Primal Alliance

......In talking with him this morning, interestingly there are no 1GM10's available in North America any longer. They don't pass emissions test and are no longer available here.

Yes, emissions requirements have pretty much meant the end of the raw water cooled diesel.

For a heavily scaled engine, I think hydrochloric (muriatic) acid is the only way to go. For reasons posts before, sulphuric acid won't work and the other options are just not strong enough IMO.

[Compass790]

Originally Posted by Primal Alliance

All I can say is that a full time diesel mechanic here in Seattle, who incidentally is a Yanmar dealer as well, has never had any luck descaling an intact engine. I can buy into what you're doing works on a disassembled engine. I don't know how the cost of removing an engine, taking it apart, descaling it, putting it back together{which in the best of hands is never as good as a new engine off the shelf}compares to simply replacing an old engine full of scale with a new one. But I wouldn't be surprised if the difference in money were close enough that it would strongly favor simply installing the new engine. In talking with him this morning, interestingly there are no 1GM10's available in North America any longer. They don't pass emissions test and are no longer available here.

The subject of emissions test & descaling are 2 seperate issues.
I think yr fulltime diesel mechanic needs to get introduced to some new ideas. Plenty of fulltime scientists pooh-poohd Harrison when he invented the chronometer because he wasn't a nobleman. Just because he hasn't successfully descaled one does not mean it is not possible
Personally I'd take Wotnames word for it as he has no skin in the game unlike a dealer who wants to sell you something. I've had email conversations & phone as well with Wotname & tho we disagree a fair bit he won't advise you unless he is pretty sure he has good grounds for his advice
From my own experience I have a 40 year old raw water cooled Yanmar that runs cool from a temp test. Oil temp after 3 hrs running fully loaded is about 59oC. I fresh water flush it after it gets back to marina but bit could run on seawater only up to 10 weeks at a time.
I have tried supermarket white vinegar for descaling on a spare cylinder head but found it pretty ineffective. Have been supplied with sulphamic acid which is used for descaling boilers in a pulp & paper mill. Never tried it yet as in the 6 years I've had the raw water cooled engine it hasn't proved necessary.
Engine got descaled manually when it was rebuilt by me though say 3 years ago.
Raw water cooled engines are frowned on by purists & I can see the logic but I can tell you there are plenty of coolant cooled engines in our marina that are blowing lots more smoke than ours

The reason the 1GM10 fails the emissions test may have a lot to do with factors such as injection pump & injector design rather than just the raw water cooling.
I don't know if an EFI common rail raw water-cooled motor can pass emission standards but I like to see a study on it. NOT by a manufacturer! See VW emission control cheating software among others!
Just think how your medical professions advice keeps changing & stay open to new ideas.
Just my 2c worth :-)

[skipperpete]

Regarding the high output alternator, Balmar is of the opinion that it takes 1hp per 25 amps of output at full load and they produce a regulator with a “belt load” setting to avoid loss of engine power.
I still have questions about how the EPA emission rules are applied to small marine diesels because in automotive applications the exhaust system of the vehicle itself with a DPF and possibly a catalytic converter provide the required clean exhaust reading. On common rail engines an exhaust gas recycle system is used but none of this is available on our 20- 200 hp pleasure boat engines. We use wet exhausts ( called “open loop scrubbers” in commercial shipping since IMO 2020) to carry the pollutants directly into the sea rather than actually release clean exhaust gas.
Does a Tier 3 or 4 pleasure craft engine undergo the same Exhaust gas testing as an on highway engine? Just wondering!!

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by skipperpete

Regarding the high output alternator, Balmar is of the opinion that it takes 1hp per 25 amps of output at full load and they produce a regulator with a “belt load” setting to avoid loss of engine power.
I still have questions about how the EPA emission rules are applied to small marine diesels because in automotive applications the exhaust system of the vehicle itself with a DPF and possibly a catalytic converter provide the required clean exhaust reading. On common rail engines an exhaust gas recycle system is used but none of this is available on our 20- 200 hp pleasure boat engines. We use wet exhausts ( called “open loop scrubbers” in commercial shipping since IMO 2020) to carry the pollutants directly into the sea rather than actually release clean exhaust gas.
Does a Tier 3 or 4 pleasure craft engine undergo the same Exhaust gas testing as an on highway engine? Just wondering!!

Marine diesels have their own set of EPA standards.

[witzgall]

The features you pointed out, the ability to limit the maximum field percentage, and small engine mode, were first available from Balmar decades ago, and are indeed a feature of all of our current programmable regulators. You can adjust the field percentage in 5% increments from 100-55%. Small engine mode drops it to 50%, and can be wired to work from a simple toggle switch in the cockpit. In such a way, one can utilize much more of the available power from a smaller engine toward propulsion instead of charging, for instance when fighting an opposing current.

Balmar also offers a Valeo conversion kit, that allows one to take that stock Valeo alternator from the Yanmar engine and convert it to SmartReady external regulation, without the need to take it to an alternator specialist for conversion.

These tools together make using a larger alternator on a smaller engine a compelling option.

Chris

Originally Posted by warrior 90

To the first point I have no further comments. Fresh water cooling in saltwater for me is out of the question. The reality shows this is a big risk that I would not be willing to take while coolant systems are available of the shelf.

Regards to 115 amp alternator running with small engine there might be kind of a solution. The other day john61ct, a member here on CF mentioned the WAKE SPEED.
Read the following info. Have no experience with this regulator but what it would actually mean the way I understand it is ... it allows You to use full alternator potential from the engine while propulsion is not engaged and in charging only mode, and when propulsion is engaged allows to reduce the load of the alternator on the engine up to 50%.

Another member wrote......
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-207549-3.html
# 41 OCEAN PLANET
> the control/regulation system is truly impressive in regards to adjusting charging load to engine rpm to minimize fuel use while charging.

So there seems to be a regulator that can adapt to the different situations and specially to prevent small engine overloading by bigger alternators.

Wakespeed Products
WS 100 Multi-stage Voltage Regulator
> select the power level that´s best matched to Your engine and batteries. Power levels can be adjusted to 4 field percentages: 100%, 90%, 75%, 50%.
Selecting is as simple as turning the adjustment knob until the desired power level as indicated.

http://www.wakespeed.com/WS500quickstartguide.pdf
>>> Page 7
In addition, the regulator can be configured to a small alternator mode, which limits the maximum field potential to 75 percent. This can be used when battery capacity exceeds the alternator’s capabilities, or to protect smaller engines and belts from excessive alternator loads.

https://shop.marinehowto.com/product...ator-regulator