Who pays for what ?

[oregoncycle]

I have friends that started this and I have adopted the program. It works for me both sailing and on camping trips with friends.
When inviting (week long trip) they are asked to be in charge of two dinners and two lunches. They get to shop, plan and prepare the meals. This gives us a break from always being the host, Lets them be creative and never seems to intimidate the folks invited along. It has always produced a fun time for all involved.

[mausgras]

Originally Posted by hamburking

A "friend" invited me to cross the atlantic with him...he needed an experienced sailor (me) to complete his crew. I told him I couldn't go because of the cost...flights, missing work, etc. He offered to pay for everything, and offered to give me a little to cover the lost income too. I accepted him paying for my airfare (we travelled together) and all the boat costs, etc, but declined him reimbursing my lost pay.

He was true to his word, and the trip did not cost me a dime. I tried to be a good friend, and contributed some boat gear I had, purchased charts and cruising guides, and generally helped with the preparations and planning a lot. I also got him a pretty fancy multi-tool as a relevant "host" gift.

However, once aboard, I quickly realize that he had not invited me as a friend, as I had supposed, but as an "employee". He expected me to keep busy on boat work during the day, in addition to my watchkeeping/nav/comm/weather duties. For example, he assigned me to clean the head one morning, after his shower. Another day he had me pulling out, inspecting, and restowing all the extra sails (13 of them).

I never knew for sure, but the other two chaps (who spoke little english) who appeared to be his friends as well, I believe were paid crew, and were also asked to work during the day.

When we arrived in antigua, we three crew were still dependant on him for a place to stay (aboard) until our flights home, which we also needed from him. So we all stayed on polite terms while in antigua, to avoid being stranded there at great expense.

In the end it was a miserable trip, and I never spoke to him again once the trip was done. I thought I would be sailing with a friend, but he thought he hired a maid. The other crew were the cook and bartender.

So my advice to you....have the discussion BEFORE the trip. Let your guests know what you expect of them... watchkeeping, cleaning, costs. Especially on a long passage across and ocean, the polite smiles fade quickly once out of site of shore and everyone is really tired.

His name was not "Bligh" by any chance?

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[softgoodsint]

Certainly, most significant is to have enough discussion before casting off that all interested parties are clear on the expectations and obligations. That said, it seems friends; guests; & volunteer 'crew' are different. Friends and Guests are joining a skipper, at the skippers suggestion, so you all share a good time. So typically there would be a reasonable expectation for them to contribute, albeit voluntarily, to some the costs, as a way of saying thank you to the host - as Ann T. suggested, like bringing the wine at a dinner gathering.

So with friends and guests, it is a matter of the relationship the skipper and the guests have and how willing the skipper is to completely absorb the incremental cost, and this gets very circumstance specific (is it a family member, the boss, etc.). And kudos to those who reach out to friends/guests who are not in a position to contribute other than their time, just for the sharing of the experience of sailing with them.

That said: I would add the comment that the case of "volunteer crew" is different. I many cases, the 'candidate' crew member is gaining valuable sailing experience and building a resume, he/she's getting something of value that would be not conveniently available (nor as inexpensive) otherwise. Even an experienced volunteer crew member would be benefitting from the opportunity to be sailing, while avoiding the logistics & cost of owning/charter on their own.

So a volunteer crew member is not being invited the same way a friend or other 'guest' would be, but instead they are essentially requesting to the skipper if they may join him/her on the sail. So (IMHO) it is reasonable to expect the crew 'candidate' to share in cost of provisions and fuel, and perhaps docking or mooring fees.

So while the skipper does have the benefit of sharing watches and other aspects of the sail, IMHO, the skipper/owner has done enough just providing the boat & insurance, so when I'm said volunteer crew candidate, I'm happy to carry the cost for food & fuel and misc., as a matter of being a thoughtful guest.

[DumnMad]

Depends a lot on your personal situation. Liveaboard or trip sailor, rich or poor.

"I've spent as much as I can reasonably afford getting the boat set up for the trip and need someone to help defray running costs - you want to come paying your own way?" could be one way of putting it.

[nautical62]

I find the strong views some people can have regarding this quite interesting. This is actually the issue that caused me to leave another sailing forum and come here.

I've had people join me for sailing vacations, chartering, on a boat I've owned in charter and a boats I've owned not in charter.

I find it interesting that some people think it perfectly reasonable for everyone to equally split all the costs of a charter, but that if I own the charter boat, doing the exact same trip, I should for some reason have to pay everyone's expenses. That makes no sense to me. It makes even less sense that as a sailing instructor I would teach people to sail and be expected to pay their entire way, but this is what some people believe. Those I've sailed with however, usually think that sharing the actual costs of the cruise (food, water, fuel, etc.) is very fair. The dollar amount of daily shared costs can obviously vary enormously depending on the type of boat and lifestyle a particular cruise has, etc. and should be discussed prior to crew committing.

Not all crewed experiences are the same, so I think it's ridiculous to think there need be any single standard for all crewed situations. Teaching friends to sail on your boat, is not the same as hiring needed, experienced crew to do a passage or delivery. Fair is whatever everyone agrees is fair.

When I invite people to join me of what is essentially a sailing vacation, I expect them to pay their food, etc. When I needed crew to help be deliver my boat, I paid all their expenses and a daily rate.

The previous mentioned constraints of actually charging beyond costs as applicable to the Captian's license obviously apply.

[Mikado]

I've always had a crew with me, some friends, some looking for a non-pay crew opportunity.

My deal has always been that I will pay all boat expenses, crew are responsible for getting to the boat and getting home at the end. Crew pay their own customs fees and meals on shore. Occasionally I have offered to pay someone's return airfare in exchange for staying on the cruise longer than they intended.

I always put compatibility of the crew at the top of the list. If someone is not working out, friend or not, they are uninvited with a airline ticket home.

[SausalitoDave]

To be clear, I always pick up all boat-related costs, including fuel, docking, fees, repairs, equipment, etc. If I need an extra able-bodied-seaman, I hire one and cover everything. I am really thinking of two situations. First, where I ask friend(s) if they wants to join on a passage and second where I ask friend(s) to join us while I cruise the Med from port to port, for example. In the second case, I feel I am providing a floating hotel and think it reasonable that these friends pick up their costs (restaurant meals, etc). That seems reasonable. I am really wondering what to expect in the first situation (passage making). Should I assume that I fully provision the boat and just expect friends to stand watches and help out in the routine of sailing? Or, would I expect them to pick up a share of the provisioning? I am actually not trying to be cheap, just what to know what is typical. Call me a newbie.

Thanks for your comments.

[JPA Cate]

SausalitoDave,

i think it is more that everybody works out the details on an ad hoc basis, according to what they want to do.

So far, we've never taken crew for passages, basically because we know how to do all that we need, and don't want the responsibility for others' well being, when it can get hairy enough for just the two of us. We have had friends visit for periods up to 8 weeks at a time, and they just kept us company on our overnighters, but it was we who were the watchkeepers. So, it was so easy, it was just friendship rules, for all the interactions.

We've been to visit other friends on their boats and requested to put in half the kitty for the weeks' groceries and grog, and did so. Felt sort of bemused by it, though.

When you're dealing with people with whom you do not have a long, on-going positive relationship, it is a totally different situation. You must first decide how you personally want to structure it, and then be sure it's totally clear to all involved, before they spend money to come visit you. Jackdale and monte (other CF'ers) actually have contracts that guests/crew must read and sign. Jackdale published here on a thread what the contents of his old contract was. Recently, he mentioned he was redoing sections of it. Perhaps a couple of PM's to the above guys would elicit info that would be helpful for you.

Ann

[Doublewammy]

Just invite friends who know what is right. If they come aboard and are tight arsed wingers, bad move, we have a couple of mates that come aboard and they bring us so much Australian beef and presents that it is like Xmas. They always pay half if not the lot, perfect people to have aboard.

[omc]

Originally Posted by SausalitoDave

So, I am going to be doing a lot of cruising over the next few years, some in the Med. some passage making and some in the Caribbean. My question is who pays for personal expenses. I know that if I have a hired professional crew, I would typically pick up their total costs (food, transport, and daily negotiated rates). However, if I have friends also joining as crew, is it reasonable to expect them to pick up their similar costs. Kind of an open question; however, comments are welcome.

Dave

Where in the Mediterranean are you planning to cruise ?

[SausalitoDave]

OMC: starting in Palma. No idea after that.

[scuba0_1]

Do you need a crew, are you supplementing your crew need with friends so now they will pay you. If you need them as crew you should pay them since you we're going to pay for a crew anyways. See the logic. So no you don't have friends go with you and have then pay there way. And no you can't charge people unless you're a captain and your boat is certified to do so.
When you have friends over to your house or family spend the night did you charge them also.


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[omc]

Originally Posted by SausalitoDave

OMC: starting in Palma. No idea after that.

Palma is very nice, and great marina.
We have been hundreds of times at The Spinnaker restaurant in Sausalito

[DeepCut]

In the 70s, The motto was: " Gas, Grass, or a$$, no one rides for free".

But if I invited a friend, I would not assume they would be chipping in unless previously discussed (Hey join me from A>>>B . All it will costs you is airfare and about $x a week for food (gas, mooring fees).

Most of friends I invite will try to pay for more than their "fair share". I have to insist that I pay my part. (but these are the friends I invite back, not because they paid for X, but because they OFFERED to pay their share."

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by DeepCut

In the 70s, The motto was: " Gas, Grass, or a$$, no one rides for free".

But if I invited a friend, I would not assume they would be chipping in unless previously discussed (Hey join me from A>>>B . All it will costs you is airfare and about $x a week for food (gas, mooring fees).

Most of friends I invite will try to pay for more than their "fair share". I have to insist that I pay my part. (but these are the friends I invite back, not because they paid for X, but because they OFFERED to pay their share."

Real friends. You can probably count them on one hand. On the other hand you don't wish to insult a real friend by offering but a real friend won't be offended.

Those that matter don't care.
Those that care don't matter.