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Old 07-02-2019, 15:22   #31
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Re: Which countries in carribean and azores, canaries are guns ok

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Originally Posted by s/v Moondancer View Post
Mike, my statement is based on 6 years cruising full time in the Caribbean and on confidences from very close friends.
Thanks. I appreciate the answer.

And just to be clear, because I’m trying hard not to make assumptions: Are you saying these people are carrying guns illegally? That these people are choosing not to follow the laws of the land they are visiting? Or, are these visitors going through the proper hoops to bring these guns in legally (where such an option exists, I guess)?

To me, one of the basic tenants of international travel is to obey (if not respect) the laws of the land I am a guest in. I may not agree with them, but surely I should not intentionally flaunt them.
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Old 07-02-2019, 15:55   #32
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Re: Which countries in carribean and azores, canaries are guns ok

I'm not terribly surprised that some folks might have guns secreted away on their yacht. Cruising itself is being independent and self-sufficient (til you run out of ice), and seeking adventure; bringing a gun would fit in nicely with all that.


If they're smart and careful, and the firearm is well hidden... I guess the world is still safe (and maybe the next owner of the boat will discover a rusted and useless relic when they rip out some lining).


I guess the new information for me is that boat searches aren't always that exhaustive, and/or there's no end to the stuff you can get away with if you're western, white and well-off .


The guys who think they NEED a gun... they still scare me.
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Old 08-02-2019, 06:49   #33
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Re: Which countries in carribean and azores, canaries are guns ok

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To me, one of the basic tenants of international travel is to obey (if not respect) the laws of the land I am a guest in. I may not agree with them, but surely I should not intentionally flaunt them.
I intended no "jabs", and appreciate your good intentions.

It just seems very naive to me that anyone would be surprised to learn that many do not share such an ethical stance.

I am pretty certain Americans living or travelling long-term outside the US are less law abiding than those who stay home. And those latter aren't all that law-abiding to start with.

And then there is the additional issue wrt this specific topic that many millions of USians consider it their sacred God-given "right" to carry weapons, and therefore would feel justified in violating earthly prohibitions by non-believing heathen furriners.

The intersection between those who hold such attitudes and those who cruise overseas is likely a lot bigger than many of us would think.
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Old 08-02-2019, 10:32   #34
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Re: Which countries in carribean and azores, canaries are guns ok

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...It just seems very naive to me that anyone would be surprised to learn that many do not share such an ethical stance.

I am pretty certain Americans living or travelling long-term outside the US are less law abiding than those who stay home. And those latter aren't all that law-abiding to start with.
You have more experience than I with international living, but I’d have to see actual evidence for your assertion before I could accept it.

I have spent considerable time in the USA, and I did not come away with any sense that Americans are generally less law-abiding than Canadians. Nor have I seen this in the American cruisers I’ve connected with over the years.

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And then there is the additional issue wrt this specific topic that many millions of USians consider it their sacred God-given "right" to carry weapons, and therefore would feel justified in violating earthly prohibitions by non-believing heathen furriners.
I can see the logic of this one. Gun ownership does appear to be a religion for a segment of the American population.
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Old 08-02-2019, 11:37   #35
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Re: Which countries in carribean and azores, canaries are guns ok

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... I am pretty certain Americans living or travelling long-term outside the US are less law abiding than those who stay home. And those latter aren't all that law-abiding to start with...
Why does the US have such a high rate of gun murders, by far the highest in the developed world? Is it because of guns, or is there something else going on? Maybe America is just more prone to crime, say, because of income inequality or cultural differences?
A landmark 1997 study actually tried to answer this question. Its findings, which scholars say still hold up, are that America doesn't really have a significantly higher rate of crime compared to similar countries. But that crime is much likelier to be lethal: American criminals just kill more people than do their counterparts in other developed countries. And guns appear to be a big part of what makes this difference.
“Crime Is Not the Problem: Lethal Violence in America” ~ by Franklin E. Zimring and Gordon Hawkins ➥ https://www.researchgate.net/publica...nce_in_America

Crime Index (CI) is an estimation of overall level of crime in a given city or a country. We consider crime levels lower than 20 as very low, crime levels between 20 and 40 as being low, crime levels between 40 and 60 as being moderate, crime levels between 60 and 80 as being high and finally crime levels higher than 80 as being very high.
Safety Index (SI) is, on the other way, quite opposite of crime index. If the city has a high safety index, it is considered very safe.
https://www.numbeo.com/crime/indices_explained.jsp

Some comparisons:
Venezuela CI = 83.23, & SI = 16.77
Trinidad And Tobago CI = 74.04, & SI = 25.96
Dominican Republic CI = 61.35, & SI = 38.65
Mexico CI = 52.30, & SI = 47.70
The United States CI = 47.13, & SI = 52.87 (Moderate CI)
The United Kingdom CI =42.72, & SI = 57.28
New Zealand CI = 39.55, & SI = 60.45
Canada CI = 39.51, & SI = 60.49
Denmark CI = 24.25, & SI = 75.75
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Old 08-02-2019, 12:36   #36
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Re: Which countries in carribean and azores, canaries are guns ok

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Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
Why does the US have such a high rate of gun murders, by far the highest in the developed world? Is it because of guns, or is there something else going on? Maybe America is just more prone to crime, say, because of income inequality or cultural differences?
A landmark 1997 study actually tried to answer this question. Its findings, which scholars say still hold up, are that America doesn't really have a significantly higher rate of crime compared to similar countries. But that crime is much likelier to be lethal: American criminals just kill more people than do their counterparts in other developed countries. And guns appear to be a big part of what makes this difference.
“Crime Is Not the Problem: Lethal Violence in America” ~ by Franklin E. Zimring and Gordon Hawkins ➥ https://www.researchgate.net/publica...nce_in_America

Crime Index (CI) is an estimation of overall level of crime in a given city or a country. We consider crime levels lower than 20 as very low, crime levels between 20 and 40 as being low, crime levels between 40 and 60 as being moderate, crime levels between 60 and 80 as being high and finally crime levels higher than 80 as being very high.
Safety Index (SI) is, on the other way, quite opposite of crime index. If the city has a high safety index, it is considered very safe.
https://www.numbeo.com/crime/indices_explained.jsp

Some comparisons:
Venezuela CI = 83.23, & SI = 16.77
Trinidad And Tobago CI = 74.04, & SI = 25.96
Dominican Republic CI = 61.35, & SI = 38.65
Mexico CI = 52.30, & SI = 47.70
The United States CI = 47.13, & SI = 52.87 (Moderate CI)
The United Kingdom CI =42.72, & SI = 57.28
New Zealand CI = 39.55, & SI = 60.45
Canada CI = 39.51, & SI = 60.49
Denmark CI = 24.25, & SI = 75.75
Gord, this is so interesting! where do you find this stuff!

there is an aspect of gun-holding vs non-gun-holding societies that would be interesting to compare as well, i.e., how safe we feel to communicate emotions in stressful public situations. for instance:

if a car nearly runs over me in Europe, i can yell at the person, tell him/her to be careful, to get off of the miserable phone (so not to kill someone else). i can express my anger. i can even slam the car with my baguette or umbrella, if it is truly a close call.

if a car nearly runs over me in the US, i must wait to see if the person is having a bad-hair day before expressing any reaction at all...
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Old 08-02-2019, 16:01   #37
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Re: Which countries in carribean and azores, canaries are guns ok

I think there is also a genetic component, those heading out to the colonies - for whatever reasons - probably much less risk averse than those staying in the motherland.

Then the impact of living in what started out largely as wilderness, the "lawless frontier" cultural aspects.

Freedom to steal, rape and pillage was a big part of the "pursuit of happiness" you go back far enough.
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Old 08-02-2019, 16:10   #38
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Re: Which countries in carribean and azores, canaries are guns ok

Freedom to steal, rape and pillage .......still the national sport in many african countries
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Old 09-02-2019, 05:25   #39
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Re: Which countries in carribean and azores, canaries are guns ok

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I think there is also a genetic component, those heading out to the colonies - for whatever reasons - probably much less risk averse than those staying in the motherland.
Then the impact of living in what started out largely as wilderness, the "lawless frontier" cultural aspects.
Freedom to steal, rape and pillage was a big part of the "pursuit of happiness" you go back far enough.
That doesn’t explain the differences in attitude & culture, between the descendants of American, Canadian, Australian*, and new Zealander colonists.
Do you think that those settlers of more challenging (geographically & climactically), and/or more remote/distant & biologically foreign territories, were any less adventurous than American settlers?
* OK, so not all Aussie settlers were volunteers.
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Old 09-02-2019, 14:35   #40
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Re: Which countries in carribean and azores, canaries are guns ok

I did not say risky DNA was the only factor.
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Old 10-02-2019, 04:48   #41
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Re: Which countries in carribean and azores, canaries are guns ok

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I did not say risky DNA was the only factor.
Nor did I suggest you had. I'm suggesting that it's not ANY factor, IMHO, in the differing cultures between former colonies.
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Old 10-02-2019, 07:16   #42
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Re: Which countries in carribean and azores, canaries are guns ok

I think it is a significant factor in common.

The differences likely come from living in a society where citizens have a greater sense of security, that the community & government are looking out more for the needs of its citizens.
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Old 10-02-2019, 15:25   #43
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Re: Which countries in carribean and azores, canaries are guns ok

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... America doesn't really have a significantly higher rate of crime compared to similar countries. But that crime is much likelier to be lethal: American criminals just kill more people than do their counterparts in other developed countries. And guns appear to be a big part of what makes this difference...
Mass shootings in the US: there have been 1,624 in 1,870 days
No other developed nation comes close to the rate of US gun violence. Americans own an estimated 265m guns, more than one gun for every adult.
Data from the Gun Violence Archive reveals there is a mass shooting* – defined as four or more people shot in one incident, not including the shooter – nine out of every 10 days on average.
https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/r.../mass-shooting

* Not necessarily fatal.
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Old 10-02-2019, 15:42   #44
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Re: Which countries in carribean and azores, canaries are guns ok

Here’s a good one that explains a few things. Check this out:

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Old 10-02-2019, 15:44   #45
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Re: Which countries in carribean and azores, canaries are guns ok

It didn’t post.

Trying again:

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