What should we be saying to newbie crusiers?

[starfish62]

Well, I think Bumfuzzle proved all the barnacles wrong. We had inland experience and windsurfing but made it to Australia in a 33 Peirson. Most of our harbours we were the smallest boat and definately not the most experierence! We made it. Had a blast! And will do it again on a bit bigger boat. Sadly, kids are grown so we have no one haul the water. In my opinion the best way to train teens on water consumption! We have a big enough boat for the kids and their partners but it remains to be seen if they will utilize it. That will be the test as to whether they loved it or tolerated our loves.

[Sailormann]

I try not to be negative when "newbies" decide to hop aboard and go cruising. The thing that does get me going a bit is the ones who are thinking that they can buy a strong boat for a cheap price. I believe that if the boat is in good shape, and if they stay far away from land, there is not much that can go wrong.

But I do get worried when someone thinks that a forty foot boat that they buy for thirty thousand dollars is going to keep them safe (unless they spend a lot of time and money making it seaworthy), so I usually comunicate this... I think it's irresponsible not to..

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by Pblais

Actually I think it is exactly like riding a bike. It's like riding a bike 2,000 miles. It's not the same as riding around a lake or across town. It needs to include the bigger picture and all the planning that goes with it. As with the bike analogy "the bike" isn't going the 2,000 miles it's the person that has to control the bike and tend to the needs of the person not the other way around.

If there is a common mistake new people make in the forum its that they seem to think it's all in the boat when in the bigger sense it's really all in their head or not as the case may be. So the question of if my 35 year old bike can go 1,000 miles may not seem too promising until I tell you I have put 10,000 miles on it already.

There is more to it than just beliveing you can do it. If that were true no one would need to go. It take a variable amount of effort to cross the line from beliveing to going as well as hating it or enjoying it.

Your analogy is partially correct.

It is more about "Self-confidence" than ANYTHING else. When I say "Self-confidence" I'm not talking about some warm fuzzy feeling that says, "OOOOO!! I can do it". I'm talking about having the confidence that you can handle any situation that comes up. Not by pushing the button on an EPIRB or screaming for help on the radio. I'm talking about the type of person that can buy an old worn out boat, replace everything on it him/herself and know that they can repair anything on the vessel, at sea.

I'm talking about the type of person that has the confidence that they can handle any situation in any and all conditions without help. The successful cruiser must have these attributes. IMHO, sailing skills come second to mechanical and physical aptitude. Anyone can learn to sail. Very few can learn to survive. That is a built in ability.

As I read this board, I see more and more about computers, electronic charts and internet access than I do about survival skills. Let me tell you, when the chips are down, nothing electronic will help you and everything electronic will get you in trouble sooner or later.

Electronic charts are a neat toy but you sure better have paper to back you up. Paper doesn't go away when the power is out and they don't take a motherboard or 40gigs of RAM to work. Internet access must be a hoot out at sea but you'd better know what to do without it.

I was always amazed at some of the people that I saw cruising (or trying). The ones with little mechanical aptitude were the 1st ones to get in trouble. The generation of cruisers that I see today are all about computers and wouldn't have a clew what an injecter pump is or how to prime it. I think that most would head for the life-raft if a through-hull broke at sea instead of finding a way to stop the flow of water. If a mast broke, it would be the end of the world. If they hit a container, they wouldn't have a clew to jump over-board with pillows and blankets, all they would be able to think about would be getting off of the boat.

I saw a guy that made headlines here a few months back when he got dis-masted off Cape Horn. When I saw the pictures that the Coast Gaurd posted online, I immediately noticed that the mast was hanging off of the side of the boat, still attached to the rigging. The skipper was sitting on his butt, waiting to be rescued and there was an impending storm on it's way.

I immediately sent an email to the website host for this guy and told him to get word to the skipper to cut the mast away. He responded that they hadn't noticed that it was still attached and they called the skipper on his sat-phone. He then cut it away. I just can't believe some of the stuff that I am seeing lately. In fact, IMHO, that guy could have jeri-rigged that boat and sailed it the 300 miles to port. Even if he only made 20 miles a day, he could have been there in a couple weeks. As it was, a sea going tug drove out and picked him up (like calling a taxi) and he scuttled the boat.

That was a classic case of lack of self confidence. He became dimoralised. Could this guy have gotten himself to safety???.....yes, he could have. Why did he make the choice that he did???...because it was an option.....If it was not an option and it was just him and the sea, he would have made different choices and acted instead of caving in on himself. He felt like a failure because he communicated the fact to someone. If there was no one to communicate to, I am convinced that he would have made different decissions and ended up in port, at some point.

[David M]

Scuttled the boat?...Why?!

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by David M

Scuttled the boat?...Why?!

Go figure.....here's all the groosom details:
KenSolo

[charley]

Originally Posted by Lancerbye

Therapy
I think what you have stated is a universal truth. However wife's wants become our needs to ensure smooth sailing. Most of us probably have gone a bit high on the comfort side just to get our wifes to accept the idea of living or cruising on a boat. Chock it up to maintenance costs. Marriage maintenance.

AGREDE 100%. Things I have purchased that I did not need but made the wife happy. Forget it, there is a cap to the amount of words that can be entered here. I tell ya tho I could have purchased 2 boats with the crap that I have bought that "I" did not need to get through life. I guess I could have said no when proposed to!!

[deepseadiver]

Can Catalina be used as a offshore vessel to i.e. cross the pond. Is reasonable and space availabe to add tankage? Has any cross the pond ?

Thanks

[jdoe71]

Originally Posted by deepseadiver

Can Catalina be used as a offshore vessel to i.e. cross the pond. Is reasonable and space availabe to add tankage? Has any cross the pond ?

Thanks

Patrick Childress of Newport Rhode Island sailed a Catalina 27 around the world in the 80's, he made a lot of modifications to it first though. We have a Catalina, love it dearly and think it's a great boat for its intended purpose which is coastal cruising. Would we take it across an ocean? Not a chance. Caribbean cruising sure.

It depends on the specific model as to what it was intended for. Several bigger Catalinas were in this year's Caribbean 1500 and I'm sure many have crossed oceans. Pick the right boat for the job, probably the 38's and up would be doable. Adding tankage is always going to be a problem, Catalina makes use of almost every inch for something or other, that's one reason why they are so popular.

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by deepseadiver

Can Catalina be used as a offshore vessel to i.e. cross the pond. Is reasonable and space availabe to add tankage? Has any cross the pond ?

Thanks

I have seen people sail around the world in some of the scarriest boats.

Catalina would not be my preference but if it was what I had and other options would stand in my way of leaving, I would sail one ALMOST anywhere. I would certainly not take it above latitude 40. I'm sure that some would and maybe others have. I have sailed the Southern Ocean quite a bit. IMHO, it's nowhere for a light-weight vessel like the Catalina.

I think that a good paruchute sea anchor may well keep most light-weight vessels out of trouble. If the seas become unmanagable, it is always nice to know that you can lie-to a sea anchor in relative safety and comfort.

The big problem with light boats like Catalina (and other boats that are really designed for day-sailing) is that they do not hove-to well in big seas and laying ahull can be fatal. It's not just a matter of getting rolled over and suffering damage. It could be a matter of the hull and/or decks crushing under the weight of tons of water in a breaking sea.

Lying to a parachute sea anchor will put the bow to the seas and the parachute itself will keep the seas from breaking right on the boat. When fowl weather passes (and it could just be a matter of a few hours or it could be a week) you can go safely on your way and complete your passage.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by deepseadiver

Can Catalina be used as a offshore vessel to i.e. cross the pond. Is reasonable and space availabe to add tankage? Has any cross the pond ?
Thanks

Adding significant tankage to almost any boat becomes problematic.
The "lighter" the boat, the more problematic.
"BeneCataHuntaLina"s are generally "light" boats, designed for "lightweight" use (as opposed to "heavy-duty").
Most boats are designed for the tankage with which they are built.

[jdoe71]

Originally Posted by Kanani

IMHO, it's nowhere for a light-weight vessel like the Catalina.

Well, sure about the 40th part, but lightweight? Ouch!

Originally Posted by Kanani

The big problem with light boats like Catalina (and other boats that are really designed for day-sailing)

Ouch! Ouch! Ow-w-w-w! Lightweights! Daysailers! Holy crap! Man the guns we're under attack!

Kanani, GordMay, you both mentioned "lightweight" several times in your posts and while I am under no misconception of what production boats like "BeneHunaLinas" are meant for or how they're built, lightweight is not a term that you should apply without looking at the facts, especially with Catalina. I also acknowledge that both of you have a great deal of experience and knowledge, I largely agree with your opinions, and I gain a wealth of knowledge from yours posts. But I really think you are understating the value and usefulness of production boats with the excessive use of the terms "light" and "lightweight" which gives the impression you are implying cheap, inferior or poorly made.

Using the data from SailCalculatorPro, a link which GordMay kindly provided a while back, I did a couple of comparisons for displacements and capsize ratios just to illustrate a point:

Displacement:
Passport 456 30200
Catalina 470 Wing/Std 27750
Capsize Ratio:
Passport 456 1.82
Catalina 470 Wing/Std 1.85

Displacement:
C&C 29 MKII 6700
Catalina 28 MkII(TR-wing Keel) 8600
Capsize Ratio:
C&C 29 MKII 1.99
Catalina 28 MkII(TR-wing Keel) 2.02

Catalinas are hardly lightweights or lightly built, and in terms of capsize ratio they measure up well especially the 28 which never was intended to be a blue water boat.

Our boat (Catalina 28) has a deck that is 1 1/4" thick - 3/4" core and 3/8" inch of hand laid glass on either side of the core, I know this as I spent hours last year grinding out core at all the deck holes and potting it off with epoxy. The hull has no core it is solid hand laid glass. I have found no chopper gun in this boat so far. Our surveyer commented specifically on how strong Catalinas are in his experience. If there's a failing with them it's certainly not the design or the materials, it is the workmanship and detail execution (such as allowing core to be near a deck hole, poorly laid fibreglass on the bilge frames), something that seems common in any high volume production item. So far any issues from those things have been fixable without much cost ($300 total for epoxy and glass). The hardware and equipment from the builder is all name brand such as Lewmar, Harken, Raymarine, Jabsco. No different than any other boat.

It certainly is not correct to describe them as daysailers, we live on our boat for up to 3 weeks at a time, and in a couple of years will be spending a minimum of 4 consecutive months at a time on it. BeneHunaLinas are comfortable boats with a lot of interior space and comfy cockpits. These boats are very good for what they were intended to do. We think we might move up to a 34 if we decide to take the ditch south, but we are fully confident we can do it in our 28 without issue, it is a big roomy boat for a 28 footer.

When we looked at boats we started with the traditional Canadian boats, like a C&C's, CS's and Alohas. Interiors are very important to the better half in most relationships, and that makes it important to me. We spend 8 hours a night (well, most nights) in the berth so I want a good one. Our Cat has an aft berth that requires King sized sheets, and a Vee berth that is 7 feet long. It has tankage for 50 gals of water, 25 waste, 18 fuel. Hardly a daysailer. The only thing that keeps us coming to shore is to fill the freezer with ice every 4 days or so, refrigeration is not on our boat (yet?). And by the way, our Cat heaves to just fine, is great in light air and when properly reefed stands up to a blow well.

At that time, a well maintained early 80's C&C29 with an Atomic 4 was offered in Port Credit for a firm asking of $48K, we paid $24.5K for our 1990 28 with an 18 HP diesel and full equipment. That is value and for what our intended use is it is the right boat.

I don't know much about Hunters, the styling of the late model ones doesn't work for me, the earlier ones I thought are decent. I have sailed two Beneteaus in the Caribbean, a 5 year old 332 and a 7 year old 411 both in charter that length of time. Neither of these boats were "bendytoys". My wife and I took the 332 out towards Anegada in mid-November with 12-15' seas from the NE and 3-4' local chop from the south. No issues. Both of these boats were decent sailors, well equipped, well powered both sail and diesel and very comfortable boats. Since most people spend most of their time not sailing, comfort is a big deal. I have a lot of respect for Beneteaus from my experience with them. Have you checked the entry list for ARC, I counted 44 Beneteaus.

Not everyone can afford a Passport, or a C&C, or needs one. For many of us, production boats fill our needs. I would love a Passport, or a new C&C. I will never own either, I can't justify spending 300 plus K when I can spend 60K on a early 90s Catalina 34, get what is needed for what we intend to do and still have another 250K in the bank to top up the cruising budget. Production boats often trade seakeeping for comfort, we know this, but it's a reasonable trade-off given what we intend to do with the boat.

For most people, who never intend to circumnavigate, BeneHunaLinas are very good value and a completely reasonable choice. Those who intend to circumnavigate should think twice about doing it in a production boat, and stay out of the 40s, no question.

I respect the choice of boats you gentlemen make and the boats themselves and I wouldn't use terms that imply they are inferior. I try to be informed and realistic about boats, that's part of what I get from this forum. There's a purpose for every boat and a boat for every purpose, let's just try to find make sure people find the right boat for the right purpose.

[deepblueme]

Or in other words....

Do you really need that Hummer to go to the mall on a sunny day?
Do you even need it during a blizzard or shouldn't you just watch for and wait out the weather?

[TAREUA]

One of the bigger concerns I have about what we tell new cruisers is what sort of boat they have to have. Some of the most strident posts come from people who admit they have yet to 'take off', but they don't hesitate to tell others, sometimes in insulting terms, what sort of boat must be taken otherwise they are 'stupid' 'crazy' and the ever popular 'irresponsible'.
My experience has shown me that the further away you get, the smaller the boats get, and the more likely you are to see a lot of one-off boats, that would get pummeled by many posters. My experience also is that the great majority of circumnavigators (not me yet) are very tolerant of what people sail off into the sunset with, but get a little impatient with the people who don't leave because they think they have to have a certain boat or heaps of redundant equipment as prescribed by 'experts.' I saw plenty of smaller Catalina type boats following the tradewinds comfortably. I have been on passages where other boats were lost, and none of them were lost due to their 'light' hull being crushed by a wave.
What boat should someone sail in? One they are comfortable in. I won't tell anyone not to go in any specific manufacture of boat. That would never be my call. Size, price, and age of boats can really mean very little in my experience. I will only recommend a boat I have personal experience using, otherwise, what would be the point?

[Kanani]

Me doth think that jdoe71 might get his feelings a little unduely hurt.

It might not hurt to read my post again, my friend. I stated, "I would sail one ALMOST anywhere". Now, I will qualify that. I would sail almost any production boat over 35', in good condition, that I have personally inspected and sea trialed ALMOST anywhere.

Although I had no idea at the time that I may be addressing someone that was considering a Catalina 28. I wouldn't sail that boat to Catalina Island from Long Beach on a rough day. It has nothing to do with the "Safety" aspect. For me, it is just a matter of comfort. On long ocean passages, you only get to pick your weather for 3 days MAX. One would do well not to forget that.

I know many people that have sailed far smaller vessels around the world. 3 close friends included. Webb Chiles (sailed a 14' open boat part way 'round the globe), Donald Kang Cal 27, Brian Caldwell Contessa 26. I have no desire to do that and would not recommend it to others. By the same token, I wouldn't discourage them either. Donald loved his Cal 27. In fact, he said that he would do it again, in the same boat, if he could. Problem is....the boat is in a museum in Soul South Korea.

[slomotion]

Benehunalinas are often dismissed as lightweight mass-produced boats and therefore unsuitable for cruising. Yet many have crossed oceans. An ‘83 Hunter 34 crossed the Atlantic from Virginia via Bermuda this year. These boats are far more than daysailors and they are perfectly suitable for many types of cruising.

If a married couple were going to cross an ocean and they had to pick one of these two boats:

View Boat Photos - YachtWorld.com=

View Boat Photos - YachtWorld.com=

I would recommend the Pacific Seacraft.

If instead they were going to island hop around the Bahamas/Caribbean, I would recommend the Hunter. Just about any good condition cruiser class boat is capable of this kind of cruising. Get the one that you would be most comfortable living on.