What is the best blue water cruiser?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

How big a dink do you need? We cruised for 17 years and 86,000+ miles in a 36 foot ex IOR one-tonner. We carried an old Zodiac Mk II inflatable... around 13 feet LOA and with a 15 hp outboard...

Yeah, I had one of those also, my first inflatable/deflateable, only with a 25HP Merc. I could plane 4 very large men and handle any water.

But how the heck did you assemble the floor on the deck of your boat?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Well there is not a ton of new development between 2000 and 1990 or 2010 for cruisers...the development is more and more private equity built to save money and developed around „how many beds for charter“...not sailing and sturdiness...





More like do you want a flashy modern yogurt cup thin grp one good for the med or actually a sturdy offshore boat. Yes they build the offshore ones today too but mostly not affordable for the average cruiser. So your choice is mass yoghurt cup production boat or an old but well proven offshore boat, best case shortly refitted before you buy it.



If mono a 50ft+ Amel is never wrong...ovni if into aluboats and all the well proven designs from Tartan till Halberg Rassy...

But as many say, you shop around and your boat will find you

While this is a common attitude amongst armchair cruisers it’s not what you see out there “ en large “ as the French say

You’ll see modern production cruisers crossing oceans , and sailing in the vast majority of cruising areas where people like to sail.

These production cruisers sail the North Sea and Atlantic French coasts etc.

Properly equipped and maintained these boats will take you anywhere your seamanship is good enough to take you.

Just get out there and look at what’s in anchorages etc

A conventional 45 foot production cruiser is more then capable of anything a leisure blue water cruiser wants of them. I’ve delivered many of them through nasty winter storms the like of which most leisure sailors never meet.

You don’t need a slow tank.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Yeah, I had one of those also, my first inflatable/deflateable, only with a 25HP Merc. I could plane 4 very large men and handle any water.

But how the heck did you assemble the floor on the deck of your boat?

Fred, that boat (like yours) had a flush deck. After a bit of experimenting, we found that if we disconnected the baby stay (easy on that boat) there was enough room on the foredeck to do so. Never actually fell overboard in the process, but I recall the occasional use of adult language as I juggled boards, link plates and those dratted channels for the edges!

And the early purchase of a really good 12 v inflator was a big help as well.

Jim

[moseriw]

goboatingnow : Hmm I do not see the point.

Your answer to CaptainRivet is ike compairing:

Old Bluewater / New Coastals
Hull thikness: 25 mm / 6 mm
Shape: long keel / finn keel
rudder: good / without skeg
Stern: up too deck / platform - wide open for big waves
cockpit: often middle / open to stern
Rigg: Ketch-Yawl-Schooner / Slup
Thruhulls: Bronze / cheapest brass or seldom good marelon
Interior: Full Teak or Marine Grade Plywood / cheapest possible home depot like furniture
Handhelds: everywhere / none
Lifelines: supports everywhere / in the cockpit - if your lucky

Bilgepumps: Always + 4000 Gph / around 120 Gph

Sorry tired to continue this endless list. Oh one point on an luxury segment cruiser: wiring to the 1600 Watts 12V windlass was 25 mm² but minimum shall be 50 mm² whille 75 mm² is considered as good. Interior fixtures are Home Depot - nowadays. rusty on a boat in the med that was 2 years old.

Seems easy just to deliver boats but living(repairing) on them is another challange.

[goboatingnow]

Let’s me offer an alternative

Hulk thickness , largely rendered obsolete with better layup and resin infusion , closed moulding Thickness in itself no guarantee

Fin keel , lower wetted surface hydrodynamically more efficient , steering astern possible

Rudder , fully balanced hydrodynamicalky more efficient better control in following seas and heavy weather

Most modern boats have wide open cockpits to the sea far more then old style “ boxes “

Rig , modem fractional sloop , efficient , less string , easy to handle systems

Tru hulls as per ISO standard , most have NO deterioration after 5 years , usage evidence shows 15-20 year life expectancy

Teak is heavy noisy and oppressive , modern interiors are holding up we’ll see 15 year old production cruisers

Life liners , more then adaquate or user supplemented

Sorry all you are expressing is a personal preference. The evidence is ordinary productio cruisers are crossing oceans and sailing in all the normal cruising destinations

That’s the proof of the puddling is that large numbers of sailers don’t agree you

( not to mention that most of the types of boats you mention. Their builders went bust anyway )

[moseriw]

That’s the proof of the puddling is that large numbers of sailers don’t agree you
( not to mention that most of the types of boats you mention. Their builders went bust anyway )



those sailers are in fact only captains as I think a real sailor should be able to find and repair every damn screw and wire in his boat. By then one should know a lot about quality and for me modern coastals do not meet my standards.
And standards, as an asset for security, can not really be discussed - the higher the better.

Hulk thickness , largely rendered obsolete with better layup and resin infusion , closed moulding Thickness in itself no guarantee

Yes affirmative as we learn to do some things better but contrary there are reports of cruisers built around 2005 which did the Atlantic six times and the hull was cracky and done.


Yes most of the designers passed away as the best boats were built around 1970 to 1990

p.s: we are talking sbout GRP as metals of any kind are a corrosion problem and I want to avoid this. (even stainless or aluminium can be a big problem)

[goboatingnow]

Sorry you are using hearsay information. “ hull cracking “

The fact remains modern or recent standard production cruisers are crossing oceans and found in all cruising destinations

There is no evidence that these boats are destroying themselves or their crew

[moseriw]

of course it can only be "hearsay" and I did not say hull cracking but cracks in the hull. this is a sligh but important difference. The hulls got a lot of small cracks - I do not know if only the gelcoat was affected (Bad enough but owed to material that are flexible which can be interpreted as good or bad - for me it is a bas thing)

Some surveyors even reported the hulls as beeing weak.

those sailers are in fact only captains as I think a real sailor should be able to find and repair every damn screw and wire in his boat. By then one should know a lot about quality and for me modern coastals do not meet my standards.
And standards, as an asset for security, can not really be discussed - the higher the better.

And yes of course these coastals and newbees (Oh sorry captains) are crossing oceans with crews that are not able to hold a screwdriver and they are getting more and more.

I, simple, would not do it without the maximum possible skills and security.

[goboatingnow]

Whether people can hold a screwdriver or not has no reflection on the “ blue water “ nature of the boat. In fact if anything testifies to the ultility of modern production cruisers its that relativity unsophisticated people are crossing oceans without seemingly being engineers

Again my point is this blue water debate has been going on here for years. Most of what is presented is merely personal preference. In the meantime ordinary sailors with ordinary boats are out there crossing oceans

[moseriw]

I fact I can not argue against your point of views. I think it is careless and I wish all your followers all the best for their crossings which is not more than a "Wishlist" as mother nature will teach us best. And if we are not careful enough she will kill us.


Soooo simple.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Sorry you are using hearsay information. “ hull cracking “

The fact remains modern or recent standard production cruisers are crossing oceans and found in all cruising destinations

There is no evidence that these boats are destroying themselves or their crew

Well i delivered a 2015 50ft Hanse from Cadiz to Cape Verde. A day before canaries we got in very bad weather. The boat was flexing like mad, no locker or door stayed closed, had to gaffa tape everything to keep close. Every wave the whole yogurt cup shivered like it falls apart every second. We berthed boat in Las Palmas and aborted delivery, whole crew agreed instantly even they had higher costs to carry for getting back home.

Yes you can cross in a rowing boat, is it safe???
Todays forcasts, lot electronic helpers keep you out of the bad weather and sea states, so this every production boat can do. But if **** hits the fan then you see what your boat is really capable of....

[moseriw]

And Hanse is not it the real cheap segement. And yes finn keel boats and the so called superior new hull designs - which enable higher speeds - are hitting every bloody wave and gives you the feeling if it falls apart every second.

In fact it does not but it is not the way we all want to sail. It is a real pain and it is because of the hull design. Check out a long keeler and you will enjoy your coffee with 6 ft waves and 40 knots of wind in your pilothouse and, like me, sleep leewards without reckoning this weather situation.

On the other hand: a new 36 footer with 3 ft and 23 knots was a hell of a ride and sleeping was impossible. But this has nothing to do with the quality but the hull design.

[goboatingnow]

Took a Jeanneau 45 DS and a HR 45 through an Atlantic storm gusting F11.

In either case I don’t want to repeat the experience !

Both boats coped and both cooed in different cases and equally exposed failings in different ways. The HR was very steady until the downhills began to come close to overwhelming the rudder

The 45DS was hydrodynamically more agile, but a lively boat

Both came out the other end unscathed ( more or less )

Both required different techniques.

These conditions are unlikely to be encountered by blue water leisure sailors As this was mid winter In the Atlantic

In fact most blue water sailing is about progress in light airs

In fact after 30 years of sailing I d say the roughest passages have been trips on the continental shelf as opposed to deep ocean

Again , production cruisers are crossing oceans and not breaking up etc.

The “doing “ is enough proof

Are these boats ideal , no of course not. No boat is ideal because a leisure vessel has to handle a whole series of often incompatible demands as well as conflicting owners expectations, not to mention price and profit margins

[sailorboy1]

If people want to do adventure sails, don't get a cruiser.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by moseriw

And Hanse is not it the real cheap segement. And yes finn keel boats and the so called superior new hull designs - which enable higher speeds - are hitting every bloody wave and gives you the feeling if it falls apart every second.

In fact it does not but it is not the way we all want to sail. It is a real pain and it is because of the hull design. Check out a long keeler and you will enjoy your coffee with 6 ft waves and 40 knots of wind in your pilothouse and, like me, sleep leewards without reckoning this weather situation.

On the other hand: a new 36 footer with 3 ft and 23 knots was a hell of a ride and sleeping was impossible. But this has nothing to do with the quality but the hull design.

The massive flexing is not the new hull design, its simply the thin wallthickness of the private equity grp hulls which have no lateral stability anymore. And nobody can refuse the fact that this massive flexing will rapidly increase the aging of these hulls. I didn't wanna try if it would break up, i guess not but i felt very unsafe.
Sailed also the 45DS, much better then the Hanse in all means.

guess what i bought for myself:
40ft longkeeler pilothouse ketch