What if someone has tied to your private mooring

[LoudMusic]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

IMHO a perfectly valid point, perhaps a small stainless plaque very firmly fastened to the top of the buoy indicating that the mooring is in fact a private mooring, however any private vessel is welcome to use it if it is vacant, at the very reasonable rate of , say.....$100.00 per 24 hours or part thereof.
Just have to paddle out and collect the money.

Realistically you could put your phone number on it and a note to call and ask if it's available that night. And allow people to moor there for free. They may offer to drop a few bucks in a paypal account.

[Metal Boat]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

I guess that we will have to agree to disagree, it's my understanding that when one enters into a lease arrangement, be it for a mooring position, a residential or commercial position one has exclusive use of the described leasehold for as long as the lease is current. The fact that it is leased from the state is irrelevant. To argue otherwise would be to suggest, for example, that those who lease public housing from the state have no rights of exclusive use and should accept the use of that housing by all that wish to occupy it. The same can be said for the commercial space leased to a plethora of small businesses.

Spot on. Leaseholders have rights.


If I want a mooring in QLD,


1. I pay an application fee


2. I pay a yearly fee.


3. I pay to have the mooring installed.


4. I pay yearly to inspect it.


5. If I do not use it I loose it hence the term "mooring minder".


6. A private mooring can only be used by me, if I want multiple boats to

use it, it becomes a commercial mooring, with a different colour bouy.


7. I pay to remove it when I vacate.

The law is clear.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

I guess that we will have to agree to disagree, it's my understanding that when one enters into a lease arrangement, be it for a mooring position, a residential or commercial position one has exclusive use of the described leasehold for as long as the lease is current. The fact that it is leased from the state is irrelevant. To argue otherwise would be to suggest, for example, that those who lease public housing from the state have no rights of exclusive use and should accept the use of that housing by all that wish to occupy it. The same can be said for the commercial space leased to a plethora of small businesses.

I don't think we disagree that much. The lease gives you rights that are stipulated in the lease. In many cases it is exclusive right to put your boat on the mooring only. In other words you don't have a right to rent, loan or sublease the mooring, so it differs from straight ownership. In some places leaving the mooring empty of your boat for more than a certain period of time voids the lease (NSW). You would have the right in that case to pickup the mooring gear and sell the gear to someone else, just not the lease space.

I think the areas you cruise in has a lot to do with your attitude toward moorings. It is really frustrating to come into a bay after a passage to find all the decent anchoring space consumed with moorings. Especially when there are many unused with no practical way to know if they will be overnight.
A suggestion above to have a phone number and sign call before using makes some sense. I would certainly honor that, although the loaning of the mooring might violate the lease in some places.

Leasing state property is a mixed bag for the public good. Like when lands are leased at submarket rates to clear cut forests, not so good.

[Mike OReilly]

I appreciate the frustration of having “your” mooring used by someone else — especially if it is done without asking permission. The legal requirements in Canada are that all private moorings must clearly indicate this fact, and must display the name, address and telephone number of its owner.

If I were to grab a mooring marked private, I would make effort to contact the owner and seek permission. That said, I’ve seen very few private moorings marked as legally required here in Canada. And as a second note, I would never grab — have never grabbed — any mooring, private or otherwise, unless I was fairly confident of what it was set up to hold.

In Canada anyway (I can’t speak about other jurisdictions), if your private mooring is not properly marked with your name and phone number, then you shouldn’t be surprised when someone uses it without your permission.

But regardless, no one should use a private mooring (properly marked or not) for a long period. That is just bad form.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Paul L

I don't think we disagree that much. The lease gives you rights that are stipulated in the lease. In many cases it is exclusive right to put your boat on the mooring only. In other words you don't have a right to rent, loan or sublease the mooring, so it differs from straight ownership. In some places leaving the mooring empty of your boat for more than a certain period of time voids the lease (NSW). You would have the right in that case to pickup the mooring gear and sell the gear to someone else, just not the lease space.

I think the areas you cruise in has a lot to do with your attitude toward moorings. It is really frustrating to come into a bay after a passage to find all the decent anchoring space consumed with moorings. Especially when there are many unused with no practical way to know if they will be overnight.
A suggestion above to have a phone number and sign call before using makes some sense. I would certainly honor that, although the loaning of the mooring might violate the lease in some places.

Leasing state property is a mixed bag for the public good. Like when lands are leased at submarket rates to clear cut forests, not so good.

I largely agree with you, not the same as straight ownership. In NSW the Maritime (all heil) require that written notice be given for absences of 28 days or longer, regardless of lease dates, although this is not stringently enforced. As to the instance of someone using the mooring while it is empty, I don't have a problem provided that when I return there is no problem for me., that is no junker left without permission or notification

[ScubaTyke]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

I just don't get it how flippantly some people dismiss trespass on someone else's property. Yes, the mooring may be in the public waters. So what? It is still privately owned, unless owned by the city or the state. Your automobile is parked on a public road. So is it acceptable for someone to get inside to keep out of the rain? Or to board your boat to use your bimini top as an effective sunshade? When did we as society loose all common sense? I understand the emergency thing and just as commandeering one's vehicle in a true emergency may be grudgingly acceptable so is the grabbing of the mooring to get one's boat out of immediate danger. But beyond that - no way. Why should the mooring owner/renter be inconvenienced so that someone else may save some $$ on dock charges? And that's essentially what it boils down to - unwillingness of some people to pay their own way together with their heightened sense of entitlement to trespass on other people's property and feel self righteous to boot.

You aren't going to build yourself a carport on that piece of public road because it doesn't belong to you. Building yourself a mooring in water that you don't own is surely the same thing?

[tp12]

Originally Posted by ScubaTyke

You aren't going to build yourself a carport on that piece of public road because it doesn't belong to you. Building yourself a mooring in water that you don't own is surely the same thing?

Nah, it's definitely not the same thing.

He hasn't just gone and put a mooring in by himself, randomly. All this has been said in the thread already but he's applied to the regulatory body (Maritime Safety QLD - a Govt body) for a mooring and been granted that. It comes in the form of a lease to put a mooring in and he has paid the lease payment. It's annual so he will keep up the payment. Legally his is the only boat that can moor on this buoy and it has his details written on it. He's paid a professional to put the mooring in; specifically for his boat rated to 60 knots, and is responsible for its compulsory, annual maintenance check.

No one else is entitled to use it or is even legally allowed to use it. If Dave owned two boats he would not legally be allowed to moor his second boat on it. I don't understand why people seem to be challenging Dave's right to put the mooring in? Or challenging his right to kick people off his mooring when they're illegally there? Weird. I thought the sailing anarchists used a different forum

More generally, if someone has an issue with the Government controlling mooring fields and issuing leases then that's a more philosophical argument that someone needs to take up with the Government. Any Australian citizen can write to their MP if they're not happy with how the Government does anything. If you're not a citizen then you should respect the law of the country you're a guest in.

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Those of us with monos think in terms of them, but an added filip in this is that Dave S's boat is a 60 ft. cat. He takes up a lot more room on a mooring than a mono anchoring nearby, so that even if one were careful to leave "enough" room for a mono, it might be way too close for his vessel.

We often see dinghies left on moorings that are otherwise empty (in Tasmania), and people do not tie up to them.

Dave, i think a dinghy with the proper details on it would probably work for you, and really, in an emergency, I bet you'd let someone use it.

Ann

It is a common misconception that multihulls take up more room on a mooring or anchorage than a mono of the same length. I’ve even encountered this from marina or club operators with rental moorings.
The length of the boat + bridle (or rode) is what determines circumference of swinging room needed. That doesn’t change by adding beam. (Unless the beam were wider than LOA).
Example: If a mooring field is layed out for boats of 50ft LOA and 15ft pennants, boats with 30ft beam could easily lie on adjacent moorings provided they all swing together. Ideally there would be at least 130 feet between moorings, to allow for boats that behave differently in wind-against-current situations, but in practice many areas squeeze them too close due to space utilization goals.
Edit: In the above example, even if they only allow 50 feet between moorings, two boats with 30-foot beams could still lay to adjacent moorings with 20 feet of space between them (each extends 15 feet beyond centerline)

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by SailFastTri

It is a common misconception that multihulls take up more room on a mooring or anchorage than a mono of the same length. I’ve even encountered this from marina or club operators with rental moorings.
The length of the boat + bridle (or rode) is what determines circumference of swinging room needed. That doesn’t change by adding beam. (Unless the beam were wider than LOA).
Example: If a mooring field is layed out for boats of 50ft LOA and 15ft pennants, boats with 30ft beam could easily lie on adjacent moorings provided they all swing together. Ideally there would be at least 130 feet between moorings, to allow for boats that behave differently in wind-against-current situations, but in practice many areas squeeze them too close due to space utilization goals.
Edit: In the above example, even if they only allow 50 feet between moorings, two boats with 30-foot beams could still lay to adjacent moorings with 20 feet of space between them (each extends 15 feet beyond centerline)

I've witnessed two collisions in mooring fields between mono's and cats. One was just a bump, the other a tangled mess of lifelines and an anchor. A cat will swing to the wind while a mono will swing to the current. I never anchor or moor next to a cat or a vessel anchored with an all rope rode as they too swing differently.

[Tetepare]

In my area there is no harbor master and the cops aren’t going to do anything. You’d be SOL. then again if the boat went free in the middle of the night nobody would know nuffin’

[Sand crab]

Here in Washington waterfront property owners are allowed to install a mooring on state lands. It is there for their own use exclusively.

https://www.dnr.wa.gov/programs-and-.../mooring-buoys
It's a similar process when putting in a dock but many boatbucks more.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by hamburking

I kept my boat at the most expensive marina in town. When I sold my boat, mid season, the new owner sailed it away. Well, another boater had been eyeballing my dock, and helped himself to it after my boat was gone, despite my having paid for the entire season. I spoke with the marina staff, who confirmed they had not given anyone permission to use my slip, especially as it was against marina policy and the obvious insurance issues, and of course the fact that he was not paying for that (or any) slip. But I had sold my boat, so I left it with the staff to deal with, and I just walked away.

I don't think you can protect a vacant slip or mooring. And any vessel having an emergency should be free to take whatever slip or mooring necessary.

I had a similar instance when I was away on a day sail and returned to the marina, my leased slip had become occupied by a brand new, waterski / wakeboard boat, a high end one. The owner of the "trespassing" boat was not present so I tied to the fuel service dock since the marina had been fully leased out and I knew there were no non-leased or guest slips available. I spent several hours checking the restaurants and bars, stores in the area trying to find the owner of the power boat to no avail. I spoke with the manager of the private marina and he agreed that I should not leave my sailboat tied to the service dock because it would block others from being able to access fuel and waste discharge and also it was comparatively unprotected from waves that may enter the marina aboat tied to the service dock could not be tied so as to stand off from the dock like they can when situated in a slip. The manager became quite upset that someone had occupied by slip stating that some "privileged weekender" had basically stolen my space, so when he had finished servicing a jet ski that the marina would rent out, he untethered the lines of the very expensive, brand new power boat, tied a line from its bow to the rear of the jet ski and towed the offending boat out of the marina about a hundred yards into the lake. He then set the trespassing boat adrift; it had no anchor that could have been set to moor on the lake. Upon removing the offending boat, he told me to relocate my sailboat from the service dock and to place it back in the slip that I had leased. The marina is located on the very south end of a large lake and the gentle breeze was from the south thus blowing offshore, . The lake being 28 miles long and averaging about 15 miles wide, the power boat slowly headed north to God know where. I asked the manager what will you tell the owner of the boat when the owner eventually returns and inquires with you what happened to his craft. He replied simply: "I'll answer: What boat?". The manager said that he had been there and done that on infrequent occasions, typically on busy holiday weekends when lots of boaters travel to the lake in the summer and just assume that all the marina's are public even though the signage indicates otherwise, there being a few city docks that one can utilize free of charge in the area on a first come first serve basis. The Sheriffs had already departed for the evening, there rescue and patrol boat being docked just a few slips further down the dock from my leased slip. I would have preferred if he had at least run the power boat up onto a sandy beach, but the nearby ones were private not public beaches and he did not want to offend his neighbors' property. I had offered to anchor my boat off the marina entrance to allow the power boat to stay temporarily in the marina, but the manager said it was his call and responsibility as to who gets to use the marina, and not my call; so he took the bull by the horns and dealt with it in a rather harsh Machiavellian manner. We never saw that power boat again.

[john61ct]

Being in the right morally does not eliminate torts liability.

Cameras are everywhere these days. Crazies can escalate. . .

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by Dave_S

Or a better solution, when they tie to it I could activate it and pull their boat under. That's entertainment.

Let me explain it from my side.

There are about 15 moorings most owned by the resort, some by emergency services, national parks etc.. there is 32klms of West facing coast on the island all ideal for anchoring in an easterly. The resort charge $15 per day for theirs so they all jump on mine first knowing full well they shouldn't. There's a guy on it now who went straight passed all the others and tied to mine, unloaded his kayak and paddled off to the resort.

I was issued a licence for the only private mooring because it is in front of my house. It is my garage. For this privilege I paid about the price of a garage to have it installed and a small ongoing anual fee plus I have to maintain it (certified annually). Now these lovely people come in boats oversized for it and/or tie on incorrectly and damage it. Not all but enough that I need to repair it regularly. One guy tested it by backing up his huge motor cruiser just to see if it will hold them, he had no idea what it is rated to so he tested it, if it had broken, what do you think he would do. Oh well it wasn't right for him. Untie and move on.

I do not see it as different than someone coming along to your house who does not believe you should be able to own a piece of land that everyone should be entitled to use and parking their Mack truck in your garage knocking part of the wall down as they do, then unloading the scooter and head off to the pub so when you get home there is no one there to ask to move.

You sit and wait for large chunks of the day waiting for when they do show up.

All this unicorn and rainbow crap about nice polite conversations and apologies and meeting nice new people is only about 50% the case at best, and if I didn't try so hard to be nice about it I think the other half would become instant arseholes. Nice considerate people don't park in other people's garages.....

If I were you I'd consider marking it PRIVATE and put a #100 on it, so they think it's only 100 pounds. That should hopefully keep the big boys from testing it.

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by Montanan

I had a similar instance when I was away on a day sail and returned to the marina, my leased slip had become occupied by a brand new, waterski / wakeboard boat, a high end one. The owner of the "trespassing" boat was not present so I tied to the fuel service dock since the marina had been fully leased out and I knew there were no non-leased or guest slips available. I spent several hours checking the restaurants and bars, stores in the area trying to find the owner of the power boat to no avail. I spoke with the manager of the private marina and he agreed that I should not leave my sailboat tied to the service dock because it would block others from being able to access fuel and waste discharge and also it was comparatively unprotected from waves that may enter the marina aboat tied to the service dock could not be tied so as to stand off from the dock like they can when situated in a slip. The manager became quite upset that someone had occupied by slip stating that some "privileged weekender" had basically stolen my space, so when he had finished servicing a jet ski that the marina would rent out, he untethered the lines of the very expensive, brand new power boat, tied a line from its bow to the rear of the jet ski and towed the offending boat out of the marina about a hundred yards into the lake. He then set the trespassing boat adrift; it had no anchor that could have been set to moor on the lake. Upon removing the offending boat, he told me to relocate my sailboat from the service dock and to place it back in the slip that I had leased. The marina is located on the very south end of a large lake and the gentle breeze was from the south thus blowing offshore, . The lake being 28 miles long and averaging about 15 miles wide, the power boat slowly headed north to God know where. I asked the manager what will you tell the owner of the boat when the owner eventually returns and inquires with you what happened to his craft. He replied simply: "I'll answer: What boat?". The manager said that he had been there and done that on infrequent occasions, typically on busy holiday weekends when lots of boaters travel to the lake in the summer and just assume that all the marina's are public even though the signage indicates otherwise, there being a few city docks that one can utilize free of charge in the area on a first come first serve basis. The Sheriffs had already departed for the evening, there rescue and patrol boat being docked just a few slips further down the dock from my leased slip. I would have preferred if he had at least run the power boat up onto a sandy beach, but the nearby ones were private not public beaches and he did not want to offend his neighbors' property. I had offered to anchor my boat off the marina entrance to allow the power boat to stay temporarily in the marina, but the manager said it was his call and responsibility as to who gets to use the marina, and not my call; so he took the bull by the horns and dealt with it in a rather harsh Machiavellian manner. We never saw that power boat again.

My takeaway: That marina manager is a belligerent jackass. Pay your bills timely and do not get on the wrong side of that guy. He's trouble.