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Old 31-07-2020, 19:22   #166
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pirate Re: What happened to the "small" "Affordable" cruisers?

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Yep.



50 is excellent. 40 is very nice too. 30 is amazing but can be a bit irresponsible. And 20 is just too young.


It took me 50 years to discover this simple truth.


b.
The best is yet to come..
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Old 31-07-2020, 20:13   #167
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Re: What happened to the "small" "Affordable" cruisers?

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The best is yet to come..

Depends on if you’re a buy or a lease type of person.
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Old 31-07-2020, 20:30   #168
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Re: What happened to the "small" "Affordable" cruisers?

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I am 61 and dream of having the opportunity to go sailing once this covid 19 pandemic clears our country of Australia. I have only sailed once when l in my thirties and now more than ever wish to follow that dream.
I understand that everyone wants something bigger with some bells and whistles, but l have found that it's not the piece of equipment you have to take you onto your destination but how you go about doing it that. You may have the smallest boat or vehicle, but the journey, experiences and people you meet will be what you remember, and tge tougher you do that journey may give you a better sense of pride.
As my wife has told me, its not the size of the thing, but the joy you get from using it. Haaaa
I hope that as our summer is approaching l can too, enter the world sailing and serenity l hope it will bring.
Stay safe and healthy.
Welcome aboard Rodneyr!
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Old 31-07-2020, 20:35   #169
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Re: What happened to the "small" "Affordable" cruisers?

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Originally Posted by Kamakiriad66 View Post
I know exactly what you mean. The wife and i wanted something either of us could handle single-handed if the other was injured, and strong enough to make the occassional long passage.

WE could buy a new boat.

We ended up buying a Bene Oceanis 331.

Not a huge boat, but extremely well laid out interior for long passages and a great deal of space for storage for a couple.

The rig is perfect if you use a yankee-stay for long passages and a genoa for coastal sailing.

It has all the modern amenities crammed into 34 feet of class-a rated hull.

I feel it is a compromise between old and new.

I wish there were more options in that 30-34 category that werent 50 years old. I wish someone made a new boat that didn't cost 120+k.

Honestly the closest we found was the Hanse 315 for new.

If someone made a 31-32 foot tough as nails cruising boat on the west coast they would make a killing. People swap old Catalinas out here all the time. A new version of the Catalina 27-30 for about 60 grand would be a sales BEAST.

The money is there, but manufacturers want to make more than that.
Welcome aboard Kamakiriad66!

Sometimes there are boats sitting for a few years, but don't have a for sale sign yet. Sometimes an email or a phone call is all it takes for the owner to say, "yeah it's time I let go of her." There is a Cal 34 3 slips away from me languishing. I am tempted to call the owner, but I am afraid he'll say yes!
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Old 31-07-2020, 21:48   #170
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Re: What happened to the "small" "Affordable" cruisers?

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OK - I admit I haven't read this entire string. But Little Otter, honestly this makes no sense. You are AT LEAST 19 YEARS from leaving on a round the world adventure, and you want to choose and build that boat right now?!?!? Presumably you have a job, and then you're going to have those kids, so you'll be building that boat in your fast-diminishing spare time - it'll be many years before you do any sailing with her.....

I'd suggest - stick with low-maintenance production boats for a while and actually get some sailing in until you're a little closer to the Big Adventure departure date.
Thanks Cap, I have a little Ranger 22 soon to undergo a refitafter sitting in my dads barn. The reason I wan to build one now is because I know It will take me several years to finish her. I am a little OCD and it honestly wouldn't surprise me if I take 10 years to build it between that and budget. I'm not someone that has any illusions that I will start on a boat and have it built in 2-3 years, that would be the minimum time to do a proper refit of a production cruiser. I fully expect to spend years getting it just right. That being said, I've been sailing for over 14 years and have a pretty good Idea of what I want. The plan is to build her and then sail her on the local lake for a few years to work out any bugs and get comfortable with her before setting off to parts unknown. The lake is 111 square miles and offers the ability to get some severe weather sailing in relatively protected waters while also perfecting technique in handling my particular boat.
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Old 01-08-2020, 00:26   #171
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Re: What happened to the "small" "Affordable" cruisers?

I think it's way more complex than just cost. Or the 'McMansion syndrome'.

Way back when, there weren't so many boats around. Getting a mooring or a slip was relatively simple. Not so much today. Slips are more expensive due to *massively* rising cost of waterfront real estate. Especially in my neck of the woods. YMMV.

In NSW, which has limited sheltered anchorages and mooring fields, especially near the major metropolis of Sydney, the majority of boats on moorings are under 8m (a recent audit showed this up), so the space to moor a 'smaller boat' is somewhat limited, and, due to the (well) risen cost of a slip, less well off folks with a smaller boat can't get a mooring and can't afford a slip, never mind a boat.

Another issue is the whole 'time poor' thing. Way more stuff to entertain folks these days, even without their phones and the internet. Also, due to lengthening hours of work (esp inc commute time) there is less time to participate in leisure activities, so we tend to do stuff that 's quick and easy. And have to fit it all in on weekends. Inc kids sport, which seems to take up a whole weekend, for anyone who has younger kids (not so many on here, perhaps..??)

Rigging and launching (and vice versa) a small trailer boat is NOT something one does in a hurry. It also gets 'old' very quickly, so loses its appeal. Especially for he/she who needs a shower. And a toilet. And A/C.
Mast up onshore 'yards' and 'boaitng clubs' used to be a thing, but not so much these days as the cost of waterfront real estate has pushed them all out to the margins.

Then there is inflation. A dollar doesn't buy as much as it used to. Plus the wages and on costs have risen, so what the builder used to buy for a dollar, nowadays costs a LOT more, so the relative price of boats is much higher today. Add to that the inflation in wages, and that too has an impact on the up-front cost. We can theoretically afford more these days. Especially with democratisation and de-genderisation of the work place, as women now can earn good salaries, so a household's income has risen, and so their buyin power. Sell ers of *everything* are aware of this, so prices of *everything* have risen.

Another issue is that (way back when) full keeled small boats had reasonable headroom - approaching full standing, especially for those under 6'. "Small boat" these days means 'cramped', and 'sitting head room only', especially for trailer sailers. SO the type. design, and construction of yachts has changed, too, which favours longer and wider boats which are proportionally MUCH roomier (and so can have more kit stuffed in them) than similar-length narrower boats of the early 'glass era.

That small-ish boat that turned up in Tassie, if you had a look at the design, only has standing headroom at the foot of the companion, and then you are standing on the hull, not on a raised sole. Good design trick, but still a small boat.

If my '70s-designed Farrier was built that way, I'd have standing headroom at the galley, whereas with the 6" bilge and sole it actually has, I need a pop-top to stand fully upright. That's a 24' 'trailer sailer'. Or 7.2m compared to the Froggies 7.7m.

So, I guess we can't say *THIS* is the reason why small boats are not being built or not being bought....it's way too complex an issue for that oversimplification, but I think the longevity of the earlier boats (fibreglass) has a lot to do with it also. Wooden boats rotted and sank or were scrapped, freeing up mooring space, and providing ongoing work for boatyards.

The modern alternative is capital-intensive. And the 'capitalists' will make bigger, fancier boats, as these have higher profit margins.

Perhaps what is needed is a cashed-up entrepreneur to design a CAD-cut, vacuum-moulded, foam-glass 27-28 with 6' headroom, flushing loo, shower, fridge, heater and power sockets for 'electronics of your choice', and make it in a developing country where the cost of wages is low enough to make the eventual boat 'cost effective' for less-well-off Millenials?

I remember reading some time ago a build thread on a Bob Forster trimaran - 28', 6' headroom, fodling like a Farrier, but cold-moulded so could be home-built (essentially, a Nineties Farrier TT), and one frugal builder constructed one, sail away, for just under AUS$50K.

That's about a third of what Corsair or Dragonfly would want to build the same boat in moulded foam/glass, delivered to a dock near you.

But for someone 'less than well off' (i.e.: Millenials) a $20K fixer-upper mono is probably a much more financially appealing 'bet'.

Look at 'Free Range Sailing' on You Tube as a classic example. 30' Clansman, older-style mono, $28K ready to sail. Yes, they are 'clickbait' sailors being funded by 'patreons' and 'donors', but they openly admit they didn't solicit this, and were prepared from Day 1 to work - sail - work - sail, but were pressured by viewers to accept donations, and to set up a Patreon account, which now provides them the ability to continue without having to work. But they live largely off the land for protein, and live a healthy life and appear to have a great time.

So, perhaps we will see more of this type of 'sailor' in the future?
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Old 01-08-2020, 04:26   #172
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Re: What happened to the "small" "Affordable" cruisers?

Americans got fatter...

I'm sitting in Sainte Anne, Martinique. Small cruising boats in the 26-38 foot range are alive and well here.

In the US I don't see this so much. These boats change hands regularly for about USD5-15,000 and are simple sailing boats with small inboard auxiliary engines.

These boats look small and unattractive on Yachtworld to the ignorant couch cruiser who thinks a windlass, desalinator, radar, autopilot, genset and aircon to Cruise the islands or beyond happily. Obviously adding a few of the above mentioned items for passage.

But otherwise, they are here !!! Come get one and have the best time of your life again 👍👍👍
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Old 01-08-2020, 06:26   #173
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Re: What happened to the "small" "Affordable" cruisers?

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Originally Posted by lo2jones View Post
Not sure anyone hit this point: less than 40 is fine, and good in that you can get into small harbors and in prime real estate at the Cay. A boat over 40 means you’ll be in the back 40.
.
why

it's silly imo to think a few feet of length keeps a boat out of a "small" harbor
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Old 01-08-2020, 07:05   #174
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Re: What happened to the "small" "Affordable" cruisers?

We have found that a 36 to 40 ft SAILING VESSEL is just about right for the two of us.

We can handle the sails with no electric winches, a roller snarling jib, a main that has a halyard, and when i want up or down or reefed , it gets done without any technical snafus.

Mooring, slips, anchoring, etc, are easy, and the vessel can do all of these undersail .

Most of boats that we have met that were cruising , were in the mid ot high 30 foot range.

That being said, when bare boating, most of the boats are large catamarans, and the charter outfits have fewer and fewer monohulls.

Regardless of all the good scoops for the reasons, it is the way it is, and frankly we are
really pleased that we have had forty years of great sailing, wonderful friends, fabulous adventures in paradise, short and long passages, day sails, deliveries, etc.

Grand experiences, from calms to okole kicking storms , plus friendships gained.
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Old 01-08-2020, 08:00   #175
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Re: What happened to the "small" "Affordable" cruisers?

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Originally Posted by sv Stella Maris View Post
Americans got fatter...

I'm sitting in Sainte Anne, Martinique. Small cruising boats in the 26-38 foot range are alive and well here.


(...)



So there is also a Martinique in the Southern Hemisphere? Ha, I always imagined this!


Queensland?


;-)



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Old 01-08-2020, 08:44   #176
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Re: What happened to the "small" "Affordable" cruisers?

I don't cross oceans, but I have made several trips between Seattle and Alaska in my 26 foot gaff cutter. I am always the smallest vessel in every anchorage, and happy to be so. Each trip is about three months in duration, and I've had a few adventures, all but a couple of which were due to pilot error.

The small size of Ripple presents challenges, of course, but I am comfy in my diminutive cruiser, replete with wood burning stove and fully equipped with VHF, Chartplotter, AIS, and all appropriate safety gear. I've done the trip with 5 crew (one at a time) and solo. More fun with crew, but solitude has its virtues.

Expenses are minimal (its cheaper than staying home). and I maintain every aspect of my boat, so I'm pretty comfortable being there alone or with others.

Even small cruisers are not inexpensive, but moorage in Seattle is still about 70% of the cost of ownership, so if you solve that part, the annual cost of maintenance (you have to do your own) is on the order of a $2,000 or so.

YMMV
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Old 01-08-2020, 16:58   #177
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Re: What happened to the "small" "Affordable" cruisers?

""Sometimes there are boats sitting for a few years, but don't have a for sale sign yet. Sometimes an email or a phone call is all it takes for the owner to say, "yeah it's time I let go of her." There is a Cal 34 3 slips away from me languishing. I am tempted to call the owner, but I am afraid he'll say yes! ""

Hey Don please do Share , We might be the happy ones if he says a yes.
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Old 02-08-2020, 06:30   #178
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Re: What happened to the "small" "Affordable" cruisers?

Yesterday day sailed with a buddy, whom I helped to move his new to him late 70s Pearson 30 back in May. He got it for $3,000 from a guy who used it as a liveaboard for past 2 years. The boat came with a set of 3 working sails, radar, Authohelm 3000, full set of electronics, albeit 10-15 years old but still working fine, with a little tinkering with wiring. It's only drawback is its A4 gas engine but for now it may do.

Now the guy makes a decent living but not money to waste. We talked about buying new. He told me he would if he could pick up similar size and workmanship quality boat for $50-60K new but not for $100-120K as it is not a necessity at this point as is a house or a car.

I go back to my theory that the industry has shot itself in the foot in the long run when it threw all of its marketing and R&D into ever larger boats and cats. Your average Joe will never in his life be able to afford a brand new 50ft mono or even a 40ft cat. But would be able to afford a $50K 30ish footer. Sort of VW bug for the sailing crowd.

When one can pick up a 40 year old boat in sailaway condition for day sails and short overnights for $3K this does not bode well for the industry as a whole. You still got plenty of beginners, as our packed (pre-Covid) sailing clubs can attest to. Most come out liking more recents models and very few would want to own a 30-40 year old IOR. But there is no middle ground whatsoever IMO. It's either an old IOR for up to $30K or newish but still no spring chicken 90s and 2000s for $50-150K. So perhaps only 1 in 100 of the sailing club members ends up buying any boat, new or used. Leaving the other 99 to keep dreaming.

This bottleneck could be resolved if the industry could come up with high volume CAD designed and 3D molded 30ish footer at around $50,000. About the cost of a mid-level car or SUV. Kind of McGregor for the 21st century. The technology is there, the vision is absent as is perhaps some risk taking attitude.
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Old 02-08-2020, 07:08   #179
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Re: What happened to the "small" "Affordable" cruisers?

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Yesterday day sailed with a buddy, whom I helped to move his new to him late 70s Pearson 30 back in May. He got it for $3,000 from a guy who used it as a liveaboard for past 2 years. The boat came with a set of 3 working sails, radar, Authohelm 3000, full set of electronics, albeit 10-15 years old but still working fine, with a little tinkering with wiring. It's only drawback is its A4 gas engine but for now it may do.

Now the guy makes a decent living but not money to waste. We talked about buying new. He told me he would if he could pick up similar size and workmanship quality boat for $50-60K new but not for $100-120K as it is not a necessity at this point as is a house or a car.

I go back to my theory that the industry has shot itself in the foot in the long run when it threw all of its marketing and R&D into ever larger boats and cats. Your average Joe will never in his life be able to afford a brand new 50ft mono or even a 40ft cat. But would be able to afford a $50K 30ish footer. Sort of VW bug for the sailing crowd.

When one can pick up a 40 year old boat in sailaway condition for day sails and short overnights for $3K this does not bode well for the industry as a whole. You still got plenty of beginners, as our packed (pre-Covid) sailing clubs can attest to. Most come out liking more recents models and very few would want to own a 30-40 year old IOR. But there is no middle ground whatsoever IMO. It's either an old IOR for up to $30K or newish but still no spring chicken 90s and 2000s for $50-150K. So perhaps only 1 in 100 of the sailing club members ends up buying any boat, new or used. Leaving the other 99 to keep dreaming.

This bottleneck could be resolved if the industry could come up with high volume CAD designed and 3D molded 30ish footer at around $50,000. About the cost of a mid-level car or SUV. Kind of McGregor for the 21st century. The technology is there, the vision is absent as is perhaps some risk taking attitude.
I think the challenge for boat builders is that old boats are amazing deals. The basics (hull, rudder, keel, mast) can last for 60+ years. Everything else can be upgraded and refit over time.

Could they build a bargain basement $50K 30ft sailboat? Maybe and it likely would be compared against a 20 year old $50K boat with more and better everything.

New cars sell because they are all but maintenance free for 5+ years and very rarely need repairs. That just doesn't exist for boats. A new boat still requires extensive maintenance and commonly had plenty of problems to work through. So a new boat is not much different than a used boat but with a much higher pricetag. That is a very challenging environment for success.
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Old 03-08-2020, 12:12   #180
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Re: What happened to the "small" "Affordable" cruisers?

Sailing just lost a legend - named Larry Pardee.
His mantra for 50 years was “Go small - Go simple - Go now.”
He lived it as long as he could.
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