Weather helm when reaching

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Ryban

I've really nailed trimming for close-to-the-wind sailing on my Albin Vega 27, but cannot for the life of me trim for reaching/off-the-wind. In seems like no matter what I try, I am left with significant weather helm, and if a gust comes through, my tiller pilot and wind vane are unable to compensate for the helm.

I have a 135% genoa and usually have 1 reef in my main.

I also experience weather helm even when reaching with only the genoa out, so I'm at a bit of a loss of what else I can do to balance the sails.

Really open to suggestions, because I'll be reaching the rest of my way to Grenada.

Well, without having any idea of
Your prior sailing experience, my first question would be, do you k ow how to properly trim sails on other boats but not this one, or is this your fist sailing experience?

Then I would ask you that by the term weather helm, you are referring to the boats tendency to turn to windward, requiring application of helm to hold on course to counter that force? Or are you really referring to a tendency for the boat to fall away from the wind (lee helm) as the latter would be more usual when foresail area greatly exceeds or is trimmed tighter than mainsail area.

What is the true wind speed? How much is the boat heeling when this problem occurs?

Most boats with a properly raked mast will sail like they are on rails, heeling about 15 degrees with a working jib and single reefed main in 15 knots true.

[bretster]

This is an interesting post. There are as many different opinions here as I've heard in person on this topic. We had a similar problem with our Jenneau 42DS. I must have asked 20 different experienced sailors/racers and they all had different opinions on what was causing it (much of what has been written here). In the end we found we had to put in a lot more reef on both sails to keep the boat flatter. We can now sail her in 25Kts true, but with significant reef on BOTH sails (more so on the main). With less sail, the rudder stays less than 5 degrees, where previously it was having difficulty holding course.

[Pigpen Pete]

When reaching, the curvature or camber of the Genoa itself,acting as an aerofoil, is probably the main component causing weather helm. The effect is well known in aircraft design but doesn't get much of a mention in yachting circles. A heavily cambered wing of itself tends to pitch the nose down in an aircaft and this is counterbalanced by the tailplanes or a reflex at the trailing edge.
Cruising the Pacific in the early 80's in a traditional hardwood cutter I had a reaching genoa which made the boat almost unsteerable in anything more than moderate breezes. It was solved by poling out the clew on a pole long enough to flatten the foot of the sail. This killed quite a bit of the drive and we lost maybe a knot in speed. But the transformation of the boats handling, making it quite docile and controllable, was remarkable. We were able to winch the pole in or out to to flatten the sail more or less and get whatever compromise of speed versus manageability we wanted.
So trying that might work for you.
Hope this is helpful.

[tinkrman69]

WH is also caused by an overloaded boat.....too much stuff on board.

[ramblinrod]

Another good question here is, "What are your tell tales tellin' ya?

[The Smokester]

OP, You say this happens with no main up, only the Genoa. Aside from imagining that the Genny is too big (and other rigging related maladies suggested above), I would try bringing the Genny sheet fairleads back for more twist. This should spill wind off the top, perhaps making the boat stand up and be easier to steer. Also, as the true wind increases, the apparent wind should come back allowing you to point more or to ease the sheets.

[hobopacket]

A video showing all your sails, different wind speeds and directions and such would be awesome!

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Ryban

Okay, I'll experiment with reefing the genoa more.

Any feedback on this specific point?

You said you have the problem with no main at all, and elsewhere said there is a lot of heel.

Get the boat on her feet and you'll find a huge improvement. You'll probably sail faster as well.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Ryban

Let me try to clarify a few points and answer some questions.

The boat is never heeled enough that the rudder is no longer completely submerged in these cases. The only time I'm heeled that much is when I'm sailing close to the wind and have too much sail out.

I have moved my genoa sheet block very far forward to spill some air out the bottom, and I forget what intuition drove me to do this, but it seems to have helped.

The main is definitely not in the best shape, and I'd say is a bit blown out. The genoa, on the other hand, is brand new. I have been considering replacing the main when I arrive in Grenada, if for nothing else than for aesthetic reasons. The genoa that was on the boat previously was a 150, but I decided to step down to a 135 since I almost always have a bit of the headsail furled in. Having the 150 would be nice for downwind sailing, but I don't think it would be worth it in the long run.

In the instances where the weather helm was significant, I'd say it was in the 10-20 degree range, and the seas were not such that I was surfing much, but there may have been a current pushing me, and contributing to things. But it was a bit scary, because no matter how much main I let out, I couldn't battle the weather helm, and if a collision was imminent, it would have been a bit concerning.

I think I'll continue sailing with either the 1st or 2nd reef in the main, and experiment more with the headsail size, and sheet block position to see what I can balance.

As far as mast rake goes, I simply don't know if it's excessive. I will try and measure it today and see what kind of angle I measure. I will be replacing all the rigging in Grenada, though, so it will be something that I can address soon if it is an issue.

Excessive weather helm is caused by either hydrodynamic or aerodynamic factors. Very obvious -- but worth repeating.

The hydrodynamic factor is heel. Depending on hull form, this factor starts to become strong at about 20 degrees of heel. My boat becomes unsailable at 30 degrees as a result of this, and anything over 20 degrees is undesirable. Boat are different, so YMMV.


Aerodynamic factors are fore-aft position of the center of effort, drag, angle of attack.

Different boats are more or less sensitive to fore-aft position of center of effort -- my boat doesn't feel it at all -- it has zero effect on weather helm. Other boats may be different, so YMMV. One thing for sure, though -- some people were apparently taught that this is the main factor in weather helm. It is indeed not the main factor, not on any boat I've ever sailed in 40 years of doing this.


Angle of attack of the mainsail is a biggie -- overtrim the main, and you've got excessive weather helm. I guess something like 80% of cruising boats have overtrimmed mainsails on a reach, based on my observations. Do you have telltales on the main? Get the boom out there until the air is flowing smoothly over both sides.

Then drag. You say your main is blown out. That might be the main problem right there. A blown out mainsail can't be trimmed to a low drag profile. So you get too much drag versus lift, and the force created by the drag will make the boat round up.

All the aerodynamic fators (and the hydrodynamic one as well) are exacerbated by being overpowered. Make sure you don't have too much sail up. You might need a smaller higher aspect headsail if you find you often need to reef the one you have.


So if I were you, I would do the following:

1. Start with the easy thing -- overtrimming the mainsail. Make sure you've got the boom out far enough. I have preventers rigged whenever the wind is even one degree behind the beam.

2. Then, watch your heel angle. Reef until you are not over-heeling. Reef the main first -- reefed headsails don't work worth a damn.

3. If you still have a lot of weather helm, then you should think about buying a new mainsail. It's hard (and unpleasant) to sail with a blown out main in any case. You can't trim it, and so you can never make it work right.


Concerning the sheet lead position of the headsail: not a big factor in weather helm, but a MASSIVE factor in sailing well. You should not adjust the sheet without adjusting sheet lead position. As a starting point, keep the sheet pointing to a line which bisects the angle between foot and leech -- this equalizes tension on foot and leech for a consistent shape.

Use a barber hauler and/or pole (or alternative tracks if you have them) to adjust the clew position inboard or outboard to control the angle of attack if you need to.

Do not attempt to depower any sail by slacking anything. Slacking anything (sheet, vang or outhaul) gives the sail more shape, and by the time it has enough of too much shape to start depowering, it will be in horrible shape making more and more drag. Depower by, on the contrary, flattening the sail, by feathering it (decreasing the angle of attack -- moving the boom out or letting the traveler down), or by reefing it (reducing the area) -- usually in that order. The object is to reduce the drag together with reducing the lift -- don't attempt to reduce lift without reducing drag.

[Hasbeen]

Designers have continually put bigger & bigger sterns on yachts over the last 50 years.

This is often to generate racing boats which run very fast, or can carry a lot of sail, with a large crew acting as movable ballast sitting on the weather rail.

It is also to generate more carrying capacity, or fit aft cabins on cruising boats, not really large enough for the stern. This is made worse when they then use a fine bow, either to aid windward ability for racing, or to make cruising boats more sea kindly.

All these factors give you a boat with bags of weather helm when healed even mildly. Throw in a low ballast ratio, & shallow draft, & you have a boat that will heal excessively, & gripe badly when hit with a gust.

You used to see hundreds of small, [up to about 50 Ft] boats designed to look like Herreshoff schooners. These are dreadful boats to sail to windward any time there is enough wind to make decent progress.

Herreshoff himself said his clipper bow was not suitable for boats of less than 100 Ft load water line. Such boats are best avoided. The only way to overcome the weather helm of such boats with sail, is to only sail down wind wing & wing, or drop the sails & motor.

I have sailed a few of these boats, quite a few ocean racers, & a few of the old Americas cup 12 meter style yachts. It was from this experience I chose a 40Ft version of the latter to sail 53,000 miles around the Pacific.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Hasbeen

Designers have continually put bigger & bigger sterns on yachts over the last 50 years.

This is often to generate racing boats which run very fast, or can carry a lot of sail, with a large crew acting as movable ballast sitting on the weather rail.

It is also to generate more carrying capacity, or fit aft cabins on cruising boats, not really large enough for the stern. This is made worse when they then use a fine bow, either to aid windward ability for racing, or to make cruising boats more sea kindly.

All these factors give you a boat with bags of weather helm when healed even mildly. Throw in a low ballast ratio, & shallow draft, & you have a boat that will heal excessively, & gripe badly when hit with a gust.

You used to see hundreds of small, [up to about 50 Ft] boats designed to look like Herreshoff schooners. These are dreadful boats to sail to windward any time there is enough wind to make decent progress.

Herreshoff himself said his clipper bow was not suitable for boats of less than 100 Ft load water line. Such boats are best avoided. The only way to overcome the weather helm of such boats with sail, is to only sail down wind wing & wing, or drop the sails & motor.

I have sailed a few of these boats, quite a few ocean racers, & a few of the old Americas cup 12 meter style yachts. It was from this experience I chose a 40Ft version of the latter to sail 53,000 miles around the Pacific.

Hasbeen, there may be truths in your gems of wisdom, but the boat in question, an Albin Vega is not an example of any of the types that you are criticizing. Others have reported sailing other Vegas, and without the helm issues the OP is suffering, so it is unlikely a basic design flaw that is plaguing him, but more likely a problem with trim or sail shape.

We haven't heard much from the OP recently, and I hope that he is out sailing and trying out the various suggestions that have been made. I doubt if he is modifying the shape of his stern or removing a clipper bow to address your concerns. Perhaps he will return one day to bring us up to date.

Jim

[Gene Neill]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

We haven't heard much from the OP recently, and I hope that he is out sailing and trying out the various suggestions that have been made. I doubt if he is modifying the shape of his stern or removing a clipper bow to address your concerns. Perhaps he will return one day to bring us up to date.

Jim

I hope so. I am refitting an Albin Vega which I have never sailed, or any other Vega. So I'm always starving for new info, and new Vega owners to meet.

I've definitely researched Vegas to death, and never heard anyone else ever say anything except how well they sail. I too am wondering about the aforementioned possible misuse of the term "weather helm", and could lee helm be what he meant. I just don't see how you can have weather helm under a jib only, on a masthead sloop. The COE is too far forward.

On a masthead sloop, to me anyway, weather helm is caused by too much main/jib ratio. Secondarily, too much mast rake - which leads to good pointing, but excessive weather helm. And OP did mention he had "really nailed trimming for close-to-the-wind sailing", so maybe there is potential there.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by dixiedawg

I hope so. I am refitting an Albin Vega which I have never sailed, or any other Vega. So I'm always starving for new info, and new Vega owners to meet.

I've definitely researched Vegas to death, and never heard anyone else ever say anything except how well they sail. I too am wondering about the aforementioned possible misuse of the term "weather helm", and could lee helm be what he meant. I just don't see how you can have weather helm under a jib only, on a masthead sloop. The COE is too far forward.

On a masthead sloop, to me anyway, weather helm is caused by too much main/jib ratio. Secondarily, too much mast rake - which leads to good pointing, but excessive weather helm. And OP did mention he had "really nailed trimming for close-to-the-wind sailing", so maybe there is potential there.

This is not correct. Fore and aft balance of the sail plan is only one factor in weather helm -- which is the tendency of the boat to round up into the wind, which you have to fight by putting the tiller up to weather, hence "weather helm".

If you read the whole thread, you'll find a lot of useful information on it.

A masthead sloop or any other sailboat can most definitely have excessive weather helm with the mainsail entirely put away -- sailing on jib alone.