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Old 28-09-2020, 11:55   #106
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Re: We were attacked by Orcas!!!

Orcas play with their food, and often leave most of it. Domestic cats often catch and play with their prey, often not eating any of it.
Even animal behaviourists will rarely state WHY an animal does stuff other then hunting or feeding.
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Old 28-09-2020, 12:12   #107
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Re: We were attacked by Orcas!!!

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Originally Posted by seamaiden View Post
.......Humans are the ONLY "animal" which kills for sport. Animals kill to defend their lives, to hunt for food - and unlike humans, they never over-hunt........
It could always be said that an animal that kills with no interested in eating the body could be "defending" itself or its clan. To say this, though, is both expedient and self-serving to those defending the killing behavior; sort of a romantic take on this. But this is not the kind of approach that ethologists (animal behavior scientists) take. Just to be clear that projection of internal ideals isn't science.

When presented with data that opposes your current understanding, do you synthesize the new information, or do you instead seek more data to reinforce your old understanding?

Consider:
"Surplus killing, also known as excessive killing, henhouse syndrome,[1][2] or overkill,[3] is a common behavior exhibited by predators, in which they kill more prey than they can immediately eat and then they either cache or they abandon the remainder. The term was invented by Dutch biologist Hans Kruuk after studying spotted hyenas in Africa[4] and red foxes in England.[5] Some of the animals which have been observed engaging in surplus killing include zooplankton, damselfly naiads, predaceous mites, martens, weasels, honey badgers, wolves, jaguars, orcas, red foxes, leopards, lions, spotted hyenas, spiders, brown bears,[6] American black bears, polar bears, coyotes, lynx, mink, raccoons, dogs, and humans."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surplus_killing
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Old 28-09-2020, 13:37   #108
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Re: We were attacked by Orcas!!!

Animals which "play" with food before killing and eating it are not, in fact "playing" with their food. Animals who "play" with their food (such as cats), are not actually "playing." That is part of the hunt. Humans have called it "playing" because most humans attribute human behaviors to animals, rather than learning about and understanding the animal's natural behavior. Domestic Cats who "play", kill and then not eat the kill themselves always bring the kill to their kittens, another cat in their household or their "Human" owner, to feed the recipient. The cat is doing what cats in the wild do, which is to provide food for its "family." A domestic cat who has bonded with its human companion considers that human to be its family. I don't know of a single scientific report or study which documents a domestic animal, cat or otherwise, playing with prey, killing and then not eating what it has killed and not offering its kill as a provision of food to its animal or human family. If you find a reliable report which says otherwise, please, by all means, email me the site.

With the exception of animals who kill to defend themselves, their mates, territory, etc., which is NOT killing for sport. Animals do not kill for sport and then not eat the kill. Animals do NOT kill for sport at all. The person who quoted something from Wikepedia should read a more scientific source. Wikepedia is flat out wrong and Wikepedia often publishes incorrect statements and articles.


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Originally Posted by skenn_ie View Post
Orcas play with their food, and often leave most of it. Domestic cats often catch and play with their prey, often not eating any of it.
Even animal behaviourists will rarely state WHY an animal does stuff other then hunting or feeding.
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Old 28-09-2020, 13:56   #109
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Re: We were attacked by Orcas!!!

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... Animals do not kill for sport and then not eat the kill. Animals do NOT kill for sport at all....
You have obviously never raised your own meat to eat, known anyone who has or read up on the subject.

The previously link to Wikipedia that you negate, is true. Dogs kill animals for fun. So do cats. A fox getting into a hen house will sometimes kill every chicken just for the fun of it. Marten, Ferrets, minks, etc, will do the same if they get into a chicken house.

There is at least one video that I have seen where an Orca has captured a seal, did not immediately kill it, and used it to train a young Orca how to hunt for a very long time. Eventually, the seal died, but I don't think they ate it when they were done training/playing. Course, even if they did eat the seal, what is the difference between training, playing and sport?

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Old 28-09-2020, 14:20   #110
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Re: We were attacked by Orcas!!!

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Originally Posted by seamaiden View Post
.....With the exception of animals who kill to defend themselves, their mates, territory, etc., which is NOT killing for sport. Animals do not kill for sport and then not eat the kill. Animals do NOT kill for sport at all. The person who quoted something from Wikepedia should read a more scientific source. Wikepedia is flat out wrong and Wikepedia often publishes incorrect statements and articles.
Words matter. To say kill for "sport" implies...whatever the speaker is meaning to imply by the term "sport." What does sport mean? What does killing for fun mean?

When animal A kills animal B without eating animal B, and when the killing did not occur for defense or energy consumption, then animal B is first and foremost dead. Person #1 can come along with a thesaurus to characterize the event, but this matters little to dead animal B who neither in any way threatened animal A (even according to animal A), nor had it's body used as energy for animal A.

So surplus killing is a "thing." It exists in nature. If you read on the subject you'll find that some of the hypotheses to explain the behavior are critical to understand in considering responses to, for example, orcas going after boat rudders. Below are a couple links pulled in about a minute of both academic papers and an article blurb relating logic of why the behavior exists.

To ignore this can ultimately result in more dead orcas if not managed correctly. For example, fishermen on boats in open water aren't prone to carrying a thesaurus.
---
we propose that surplus hunting in weasels is a regular seasonal (winter) strategy, a mean of: (1) balancing the cold-iinduced increase of energy need, (2)compensating the concurrent restriction in hunting activity, (3) constantly supplying a "buffer" cache against un-predictable winter conditions.
https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdo...=rep1&type=pdf

Observations are reported in which carnivores killed considerably more prey animals than they could possibly eat, and causal and functional aspects of this behaviour are discussed. The species concerned were especially foxes and Spotted hyaenas, and references are quoted about surplus killing by other Canidae, Felidae and Ursidae.
https://zslpublications.onlinelibrar...1972.tb04087.x

Instead of fleeing, as wild prey would do, sheep tend to run in circles. This chaos can trigger a prey response in predators that can result in multiple kills. In the Northern Rockies this behavior has been recorded with mountain lions, bears, coyotes, wolves, and domestic dogs.
https://www.livingwithwolves.org/portfolio/3933/
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Old 28-09-2020, 15:01   #111
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Re: We were attacked by Orcas!!!

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...
Instead of fleeing, as wild prey would do, sheep tend to run in circles. This chaos can trigger a prey response in predators that can result in multiple kills. In the Northern Rockies this behavior has been recorded with mountain lions, bears, coyotes, wolves, and domestic dogs.
https://www.livingwithwolves.org/portfolio/3933/
Yep.

If one would read the Jame Herriot novels, or watch the TV series, one of the stories was of an older couple who retired to the country. I have read the books numerous times and seen the series even more. Just happened to subscribe to BritBox and started watching the series yet again.

Spoil alert...

A farmer's sheep were being run almost to death, and some sheep had their throats ripped out by a dog. Turned out to be the retired couple's dog which had to be put down as a result of it's sheep killing. The owners also had to pay for the farmers losses. This was a known behavior from domestic dogs. Oh yeah, the incident happened before WWII.

We have spent a bit of time in the rural part of Ireland, not near enough, but we sure saw plenty of sheep and signs telling people to keep their dogs on a leash. I wonder why?

Once upon a time, I worked on a farm that had 100 head of cattle. I have seen those cattle spooked by a snapping stick on the ground, just like it was a John Wayne movie, and start to stamped over fallen trees and brush. Amazing what those critters would run over. Even more amazing that they did not get hurt.

A neighbor's dog would come on the farm and run the cattle right through multiple strands of barbed wire. The cattle went through that wire like it was a wet paper straw. I had to fix multiple holes in the fence line caused by stampeding cattle being chased by that dog.

The cattle were too big for the dog to hurt directly, and we did not have calves at that point, but running the cattle certainly could have injured one or more of the beeves, causing them to be put down, which would have been a serious loss of money.

If we had caught that dog chasing the cattle, we would have shot it.

Later,
Dan
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Old 28-09-2020, 15:18   #112
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Re: We were attacked by Orcas!!!

You miss the point of this discussion. Of course animals attack, for food, to protect themselves, etc. The issue is whether some animals kill for pleasure and fun. There seems to be an inordinate number of people on this thread who are ignorant of animal behavior and do what the majority of humans do, which is to "humanize" animals.



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Originally Posted by Pauls View Post
Without question intelligent animals occasionally attack humans. The animal world is one of either killing or being killed. There is a large record of humans being attacked by land based mammals. Why should sea based mammals not occasionally do the same?
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Old 28-09-2020, 15:25   #113
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Re: We were attacked by Orcas!!!

OMG!!! Listen, I grew up on a sheep farm. Our neighbor had a cattle farm. I know all about animal husbandry as well as how domesticated dogs will, if given the opportunity, hunt and kill sheep and hunt and attack even cattle. It isn't a bloody game for these dogs (or for domesticated cats)!!! It is the domesticated dog's fundamental nature of a predator.

An exception are Border Collies and other sheep dogs who have been bred and trained for centuries to herd and protect livestock.

Do you inow that before dogs weere domesticated they were wild and predators!!!

People, stop relying on fiction, movies, Wikepedia!!! This is bloody nonsense and it is infuriating thar you all are willing to rely on fiction rather than animal science and animal husbandry!



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Yep.
If one would read the Jame Herriot novels, or watch the TV series, one of the stories was of an older couple who retired to the country. I have read the books numerous times and seen the series even more. Just happened to subscribe to BritBox and started watching the series yet again.

Spoil alert...

A farmer's sheep were being run almost to death, and some sheep had their throats ripped out by a dog. Turned out to be the retired couple's dog which had to be put down as a result of it's sheep killing. The owners also had to pay for the farmers losses. This was a known behavior from domestic dogs. Oh yeah, the incident happened before WWII.

We have spent a bit of time in the rural part of Ireland, not near enough, but we sure saw plenty of sheep and signs telling people to keep their dogs on a leash. I wonder why?

Once upon a time, I worked on a farm that had 100 head of cattle. I have seen those cattle spooked by a snapping stick on the ground, just like it was a John Wayne movie, and start to stamped over fallen trees and brush. Amazing what those critters would run over. Even more amazing that they did not get hurt.

A neighbor's dog would come on the farm and run the cattle right through multiple strands of barbed wire. The cattle went through that wire like it was a wet paper straw. I had to fix multiple holes in the fence line caused by stampeding cattle being chased by that dog.

The cattle were too big for the dog to hurt directly, and we did not have calves at that point, but running the cattle certainly could have injured one or more of the beeves, causing them to be put down, which would have been a serious loss of money.

If we had caught that dog chasing the cattle, we would have shot it.

Later,
Dan
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Old 28-09-2020, 15:47   #114
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Re: We were attacked by Orcas!!!

First of all, you should NEVER assume! You happen to be grossly wrong!
I grew up on a sheep farm. We ate our sheep! We always had at least 3 and often more Border Collies as well as puppies. Our neighbor had a cattle farm and also had Border Collies. The town i lived in and a number of the the towns in our area as well as the towns we visited when attending Sheep Dog trials and Agricultural Fairs, all had numerous cattle, sheep, pig farms as well as the attendant herding dogs. I know a great deal about animal husbandry as well as how domesticated dogs will, under certain circumstances, hunt and kill sheep and hunt and attack even cattle. It isn't a bloody game for these dogs (or for domesticated cats when they kill their hunted prey)!!! It is the domesticated dog's fundamental nature as predator which becomes unleashed under certain circumstances.

Dogs such as Border Collies and other herding dogs who have been bred and trained for centuries to herd and protect cattle, do not attack the domestic animals they herd and protect. Of course there are exceptions to that statement, where a herding dog is born with a genetic disorder or has a medical condition causing them to exhibit aggressive behavior which the dog would otherwise not engage in.

I absolutely do know about animal husbandry, sheep dogs, etc. So next time, ask the BLOODY QUESTION before making an assumption. When you assume, you just make an ass out of yourself!

"FUN" is a human attribute, not one that has ever been scientifically proven to be an attribute of wild or domesticated mammals. Dogs, cats, foxes, wolves, all mammals that hunt, will kill to defend themselves, their offspring, their mate and for those who are in a pack, their pack mates. They will kill to defend their territory. They will kill for food - whether they eat it immediately or at a later time (which many animals do).

The fact that you choose to rely on non-scientific and often fictionalized accounts of these animals only serves to show that you aren't interested in educating yourself. You like the romanticized, humanized and thereby grossly inaccurate perception of animals which most people prefer to believe. In that respect, you are in "bad company."


Quote:
Originally Posted by dannc View Post
You have obviously never raised your own meat to eat, known anyone who has or read up on the subject.

The previously link to Wikipedia that you negate, is true. Dogs kill animals for fun. So do cats. A fox getting into a hen house will sometimes kill every chicken just for the fun of it. Marten, Ferrets, minks, etc, will do the same if they get into a chicken house.

There is at least one video that I have seen where an Orca has captured a seal, did not immediately kill it, and used it to train a young Orca how to hunt for a very long time. Eventually, the seal died, but I don't think they ate it when they were done training/playing. Course, even if they did eat the seal, what is the difference between training, playing and sport?

Later,
Dan
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Old 28-09-2020, 15:55   #115
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Re: We were attacked by Orcas!!!

Regarding the dog running the cattle, that was not a herding dog; that was a dog hunting prey. As far as Orcas and all other wild animals who teach their young to hunt, yes, that is exactly what they are doing. It is teaching, it is not a game. And if they do not eat a dead animal - that is because many hunter mammals will not eat an animal which they have not killed. It is "carrion" to them. Teaching their young to hunt usually concludes with the hunted being killed. If that doesn't happen, the hunters, unless starving, won't eat prey which drops dead from exhaustion.


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Originally Posted by dannc View Post
Yep.

If one would read the Jame Herriot novels, or watch the TV series, one of the stories was of an older couple who retired to the country. I have read the books numerous times and seen the series even more. Just happened to subscribe to BritBox and started watching the series yet again.

Spoil alert...

A farmer's sheep were being run almost to death, and some sheep had their throats ripped out by a dog. Turned out to be the retired couple's dog which had to be put down as a result of it's sheep killing. The owners also had to pay for the farmers losses. This was a known behavior from domestic dogs. Oh yeah, the incident happened before WWII.

We have spent a bit of time in the rural part of Ireland, not near enough, but we sure saw plenty of sheep and signs telling people to keep their dogs on a leash. I wonder why?

Once upon a time, I worked on a farm that had 100 head of cattle. I have seen those cattle spooked by a snapping stick on the ground, just like it was a John Wayne movie, and start to stamped over fallen trees and brush. Amazing what those critters would run over. Even more amazing that they did not get hurt.

A neighbor's dog would come on the farm and run the cattle right through multiple strands of barbed wire. The cattle went through that wire like it was a wet paper straw. I had to fix multiple holes in the fence line caused by stampeding cattle being chased by that dog.

The cattle were too big for the dog to hurt directly, and we did not have calves at that point, but running the cattle certainly could have injured one or more of the beeves, causing them to be put down, which would have been a serious loss of money.

If we had caught that dog chasing the cattle, we would have shot it.

Later,
Dan
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Old 28-09-2020, 16:07   #116
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Re: We were attacked by Orcas!!!

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Originally Posted by seamaiden View Post
OMG!!! Listen, I grew up on a sheep farm. Our neighbor had a cattle farm. I know all about animal husbandry as well as how domesticated dogs will, if given the opportunity, hunt and kill sheep and hunt and attack even cattle. It isn't a bloody game for these dogs (or for domesticated cats)!!! It is the domesticated dog's fundamental nature of a predator.

An exception are Border Collies and other sheep dogs who have been bred and trained for centuries to herd and protect livestock.

Do you inow that before dogs weere domesticated they were wild and predators!!!

People, stop relying on fiction, movies, Wikepedia!!! This is bloody nonsense and it is infuriating thar you all are willing to rely on fiction rather than animal science and animal husbandry!
Since you grew up on a sheep farm then you should know of the dangers various predators have on live stock. And some of those predators kill for fun. Fun being defined as killing more than they eat.

The dog that was put down in the Jame's Herriot book was an German Shepard, a dog bred to protect the flock. And as mentioned in the book, it was known that sometimes the sheep dogs would go rogue and kill, for fun, the animals they were bred to protect.

The Herriot books are not fiction, they were a series of books about his life as a vet in rural UK.

You said,
Quote:
... Animals do not kill for sport and then not eat the kill. Animals do NOT kill for sport at all....

Last time I checked, dogs are animals. Dogs are well known to kill live stock and not eat said live stock. If that is not for sport, what is it?

You then said,
Quote:
I know all about animal husbandry as well as how domesticated dogs will, if given the opportunity, hunt and kill sheep and hunt and attack even cattle.

Since a domesticated dog does not need to kill for food, why is it killing livestock?

Cats also kill for fun. Seen it. One reason I won't have a cat since they seem to enjoy killing more so than the average dog.


You should not be so negative about Wikipedia, it can be, and usually is for what I read, a good source of valid information.


Later,
Dan
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Old 28-09-2020, 17:15   #117
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Re: We were attacked by Orcas!!!

It is perfectly natural for wild animals to attack if they feel threatened and need to defend themselves. Wild animals "hunt", that is not the same.

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It's not natural behavior to attack something they aren't going to eat. It was a trained behavior.
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Old 28-09-2020, 17:27   #118
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Re: We were attacked by Orcas!!!

First, no responsible, educated farmer who has livestock which requires herding would ever use a German Shepherd as a herd dog. They are not bred for herding. They cannot be trained to herd and anyone who thinks they can deserves the disaster which will result!

Your definition of "fun'" is both ludicrous and not a scientific definition.

Animals who kill may not eat the entire kill at one time. They may save, bury and return to eat what they have "stored" later. Many predators only eat certain parts of their kill, the "choicest" parts for them. Other, smaller predators will consume the rest.

The fact that a predator doesn't eat the entire carcass is not evidence that they kill for fun.

I already wrote back why domesticated dogs kill. Go back to my prior posts.

I am not the one who is ignorant here. You are. I will not continue this with you; it isn't worth my time or energy. It isn't worth making me livid at hearing your ignorance - which is shared by so many unschooled, uneducated people who prefer to romanticize animal behavior and have never lived with and worked with such animals.




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Originally Posted by dannc View Post
Since you grew up on a sheep farm then you should know of the dangers various predators have on live stock. And some of those predators kill for fun. Fun being defined as killing more than they eat.

The dog that was put down in the Jame's Herriot book was an German Shepard, a dog bred to protect the flock. And as mentioned in the book, it was known that sometimes the sheep dogs would go rogue and kill, for fun, the animals they were bred to protect.

The Herriot books are not fiction, they were a series of books about his life as a vet in rural UK.

You said,


Last time I checked, dogs are animals. Dogs are well known to kill live stock and not eat said live stock. If that is not for sport, what is it?

You then said,


Since a domesticated dog does not need to kill for food, why is it killing livestock?

Cats also kill for fun. Seen it. One reason I won't have a cat since they seem to enjoy killing more so than the average dog.


You should not be so negative about Wikipedia, it can be, and usually is for what I read, a good source of valid information.


Later,
Dan
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Old 28-09-2020, 18:20   #119
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Re: We were attacked by Orcas!!!

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First, no responsible, educated farmer who has livestock which requires herding would ever use a German Shepherd as a herd dog. They are not bred for herding. They cannot be trained to herd and anyone who thinks they can deserves the disaster which will result!
They were originally herding dogs, though. Hence “Shepard”? https://countryk9pets.com/blog/herdi...rding-behavior

They just don’t do it the same way a border collie does, there are different herding styles. https://youtu.be/9dxH7a6AWio
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Old 28-09-2020, 18:34   #120
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Re: We were attacked by Orcas!!!

Actually, the man who first created German Shepherds did so with continuous in-breeding, which resulted in the genetic weaknesses still prevalent among German Shepherds today. Only briefly, at the inception of their breed, were they used as herd dogs for domestic cattle and sheep. This was because of an aggressiveness which was one of the results of the inbreeding. They have been used for many tasks which suit their strong temperament: search and rescue, police work, tracking, cadaver recovery and for a long time in the military.


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Originally Posted by PirateFoxy View Post
They were originally herding dogs, though. Hence “Shepard”? https://countryk9pets.com/blog/herdi...rding-behavior

They just don’t do it the same way a border collie does, there are different herding styles. https://youtu.be/9dxH7a6AWio
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