Unfortunate turn!

[CaptainK]

My thoughts exactlly too, exposure.

[Talbot]

[Mario]

Maybe they end their trip in a few years time and write a book or something and get all their investment back!

I've never seen such a long debate about any other cruisers out there!

They are definitely setting a new standard for modern cruising style!

Bumfuzzle rules!

[Lodesman]

Well, what happened? This forum was active when I started reading it. As it was "recommended" that one should read the entire history of the forum before butting in, I did just that. And to be completely fair, I went and read all of the Bumfuzzle logs right from the beginning. Undertaking one is an epic venture in reading, let alone both. But I did it and now I find the forum's gone silent. Well I've invested a lot of time in this endeavour, so I'm going to make my post; call it an overblown sense of entitlement or what have you, I don't care.
I hope Rhonda checks in on this. She's the one who inadvertantly played Frankenstein and gave life to this monster, but I think was denied the satisfaction of a suitable discussion of her original topic, as everyone went off on tangential rants. Hopefully, I'll add a unique opinion addressing that first post. Since it's also been stated that "tone" can not be fully appreciated from writing, I'll make the caveat that all I say here is good-natured - I have no malicious intent and no axes to grind.
First I'll state that I enjoy the Bumfuzzle logs; they're entertaining, enlightening and even educational. We all can learn from their experiences, good or bad; their successes; and their mistakes. There's an old airman's adage that "a wise pilot learns from the mistakes of others, as he'll not live through learning all of them himself." Many of Pat's and Ali's adventures parallel my own travels; it's nice to hear about the changes that have happened in some of these places over the past fifteen years. It's also nice to hear that some things haven't changed. As to their level of experience, I think the point is largely moot, but my 2-cent opinion is they prepared and researched for their trip for about a year, then got their feet wet close to home (well, in this case, Florida) before incrementally venturing further afield. I think it was a reasonable approach, as experience is the best teacher, and it's just as easy to drown in Lake Michigan as it is to drown in the Caribbean. Could they have more experience? Sure, but couldn't we all? The reality is that you can never have enough training/knowledge/experience to handle every eventuality. At some point you have to assume the risk and strike out. I think they summed it up nicely:

'It seems like we have been here so long preparing that you start to forget what you are preparing for._ That probably explains why there are so many boats in Fort Lauderdale that are clearly never used._ I am sure the owners started out with grand plans for all the exciting voyages they would go on, only to find themselves preparing and preparing until they finally gave up on the whole idea.'

I think it's clear from their logs that Pat and Ali are open to advice and they obviously read these forums, presumably to learn. In the format of a forum, I think it's desirable to offer the benefit of one's experience, without judgment. Whether that advice is followed or not, it should not matter. If need be we simply agree to disagree. I emphatically disagree with those who would drag down a forum into spates of name-calling, insults and unfounded aspersions. I won't point fingers; you know who you are, and you could benefit from this article:
http://www.bumfuzzle.com/Oakdale%20Article.htm

The Bumfuzzle logs are chock full of educational material. I could easily speak to dozens of excerpts, but I'll spare you that and address only a few. This is for the benefit of all who read it, not just the 'Fuzz. First of all, you "weigh" anchor, not "up" it. Sorry I can't help it, but they take terminology very seriously in the Navy. It galls me to no end to see major boat manufacturers refer to their boats' 'kitchens' and 'bathrooms.'

Next, a "cable" in the nautical sense is a measure of 200 yards; this equates to one-tenth of a nautical mile. Canadian charts (not 'maps') and (if I remember correctly, Admiralty and Australian charts) are gridded in degrees, minutes and decimal-minutes. That means that you have a handy scale running up the side of the chart, where each tick is a cable (on the large scale ie. harbour charts); use latitude scale, not longitude. American charts use seconds, so no handy scale and the added conversion challenge if your GPS can't display in DMS.

My last point from their logs is their June 05 crossing of the Clarence River bar:

'Then just as we entered the runway we saw a huge wave about 75 yards in front of us that seemed to be moving in slow motion as it moved straight up the river…Suddenly there were huge breaking waves roaring up behind us…Number one is that river bar entrances are not something to be taken lightly, ever.'

More than a few highly experienced mariners have found themselves in similar situations. If you want to know how this happens, google the term "tidal bore". Although it may not technically qualify, the effect is the same. While you're at it, check out "seiche" and "standing wave". Knowledge is power, but luck and guts play a big part in life.

Now to Rhonda's request - I don't buy the 'lightning strike' argument either; it's clear that shoddy manufacturing played a major factor. Another factor is the fact that there was fibreglass over antifouling, which suggests that damage was hastily repaired somewhere along the line: it could have been in S Africa; it could have been the original owner; it could have been dropped in the Florida boatyard, or the yard in Panama, and repaired on the sly, so it was unbeknownst to Pat and Ali. Only one party really knows that answer, and I doubt the truth will come out here. I'm not saying that Charter Cats necessarily had a responsibility to a second owner of a two-year old boat, but they should have been more truthful and upfront about it, and didn't need to string Pat and Ali along with apparent concern. Notwithstanding Charter Cat's piss-poor customer service and dubious expertise, I tend to agree with the builder's concern about replacing roving and cloth with chopped-strand. Although they got a nice fair finish, the strength of the hull would most definitely be lessened. Well maybe not less than the way it was, since it had never been bonded to the core, but certainly less than if it had been built as it was designed. You would hope that any builder that wants to stay in this business would take notice of possible patent flaws. In this case the builder should have gone to Panama or hired a local surveyor to have a good look at Bumfuzzle, rather than making a specious diagnosis, based solely on emailed photos. That the surveyor didn't spot these flaws, despite his acknowledged experience and expertise, goes to show how difficult it is to determine flaws in a 'glass hull. Then again, any hull material presents its own challenges. Oh well, caveat emptor.

Final word, to Pat and Ali - keep on doing what you're doing, you have more fans than detractors.

OK - one more final word (last one, I promise). I applaud the Bums' efforts to simulate Taco Bell on board (two words, "onboard" does not exist in the English language, Brit, Yank, Canuck, Aussie or otherwise; though through common usage, it might as well); I offer a method to make pizza on board. We've been barbecuing pizza for the last couple of years using a pizza stone. If anyone wants more info, pictures, recipes, I'll be more than happy to oblige. (I didn't say the last word would be short).

There now, I've got that out of my system. Cheers.

Kevin

[GordMay]

Kevin:
“Barbecued Pizza” sounds like a cruiser-friendly recipe, worthy of a post under the last thread “Cruisin' Cuisine“ at http://www.cruisersforum.com/forumdi...?s=&forumid=91

Don’t worry about any “wasted investment” in reading Pat & Ali’s chronicles and this entire thread - remember that:
“Knowledge increases exponentially with information.”

[Weyalan]

This whole thread has a certain resonance with my own experience. When I was a young(er) man, I did an awful lot of very foolish and dangerous things; not on boats, but in high mountains. I could give you some examples that would probably make your hair stand on end, but I won't bore you with the details.

Lets just say that and my friends frequently did things that could easily have got us killed. I took unacceptable risks. Older wiser heads told me I was being foolhard, selfish (think of the volunteer mountain rescue teams) and pig-headed. And you know what? They were right! We were disrespectful rude young pups, arrogant and naive; self confident and thought ourselves bullet proof. The "old timers" were right. We were stupid and irresponsible. But we were right too. I'm still alive to tell the tale. Nobody ever did have to come and rescue my arse. And boy did I learn a lot about myslef and the world in those years of adventure and foolishness. Sure, age has mellowed me, and I would not take such foolish risks now, but I am older and wiser now, and in my opinion, such small wisdom as i have accrued is not just from age, but from experience - and those unwise exeriences were as much a part of the process as anything else.

I think the point is that self-confidence, foolhardyness, joi de vivre and bull-at-a-gate attitude are (generally) the demense of youth, while wisdom, preparedness, and a gentle step are (generally) the demense of old. The young will always see the old as fuddy-duddy naysayers and criticisers and the old will always see the young as hot-headed fools who rush in where angels fear to tread. Such is the way of it.

If Pat and Ali do not pay the ultimate price for their exuberance outweighing their ability (and I really hope that they don't), then I am sure they will be a lot wiser when they finish the lap than they were when they started...and really, that is all they, or anyone can hope for.

[BC Mike]

I am pleased you are still with us, I could tell you a few stories about folks who ignored the words of advice and are dead.
These things happen. Style can be important though. It might be how you snub your nose at the advice.
Mallory died, Hillary and Tenzing made it. But that was for a nobel cause, the glory and all. But folks are still dying on the mountain.
Folks still go missing at sea, the Yankees lose many on the roads, same up here.
When you are young it is not easy following the accepted past, especially when you know you are not going to die.
But the hard work has been done, by the war vets for stopping the enemy, and by the hippy culture for rearranging society.
Beethoven was just as arrogant towards the status quo, and I admire him for that.
It is always hard for the older generation to see how easy it appears for the younger ones.
But we had nuclear holocast to worry about, and the workers today are taxed at a rate never dreamed of just 50 years ago.
I am sick of this thread though, it has all been said.
Michael

[Weyalan]

BC Mike C once whispered in the wind:
I am pleased you are still with us, I could tell you a few stories about folks who ignored the words of advice and are dead.

Of course, as could I, and some of those deaths have been a little too close to home for comfort...nevertheless, the young will (always) continue to be foolish, and the old will continue to shake their heads. Some young people will die for their foolishness, but remarkably, most will survive despite their stupidity. Some old wise and careful people will die despite their care. Such is life.

BC Mike C once whispered in the wind:I am sick of this thread though, it has all been said.
Michael

Heh heh...flogging dead horses - fun for all the family!

[Lodesman]

BC Mike C once whispered in the wind:

I am sick of this thread though, it has all been said.
Michael

And yet you're still reading it! Curious.
Personally, I thought my points were original - if anyone feels I plagiarized, I offer my sincere apologies.
Now comparing the careless stupidity of youth to the cautious wisdom of the aged is really derivative

Kevin

[Weyalan]

Lodesman once whispered in the wind:
Now comparing the careless stupidity of youth to the cautious wisdom of the aged is really derivative

Kevin

Ouch! I just got zinged!

[bajamas]

Ever notice that anyone driving slower than you is a flippin' moron and anyone that drives faster is a freakin' maniac?!?

Bajamas

[teamivey]

I actually stumbled onto the bumfuzzle site from the forum here. My wife and I were researching cats at the time. I believe we came across a posting from someone who had looked at the wildcat that Pat and Ali bought, but decided on a Prout instead. Truth be told he had heard bad things about wildcat manufacturing. To bad Pat and Ali had not heard also.

Anyhow I started reading the bumfuzzle logs, and was hooked. I think that Pat is a great writer, and when they get back they are just an agent or publiscist away from a book deal.

Once I had read enough to become current, (a pun there?) I sent them an email. We hit it off and have corresponded since. My wife and I then found out that they were coming to Portland, Oregon for the Christmas holiday. So we actually went out with them, for you guessed it, pizza and beers. Pat and Ali are great and we got along fine. If you have seen the pic of Pat doing Karaoke, entitled too many microbrews. That was the night we went out with them and a great rip roarin time. It would seem to me difficult to dislike Pat and Ali. Apparently this sentiment is not shared by all. So as a friend of theirs I would like to put up some shields, and fire a few salvos on their behalf.

Some of your names I remember and some I don't, but I am sure that you will be able to identify yourselves. Eurocruiser. You are very knowledgable. In sailing. Consider when writing your comments that they will probably be read by those you are commenting on. Read your comments with Pat and Ali's eyes. Would you like you? Speaking of knowledge. Where does the person who posted Pat and Ali as a "silver spoon" couple get his knowledge. From what Pat told me, and I asked him, not speculated, he was able to finance this trip through succesful commodities trading. Which he started as an entry level runner. Silver spoon? It would seem that whoever made that comment should also post an apology. As for commenting on their inexperience as sailors, perhaps some of you should have kept a log as to how you raised the finances to make your cruising dreams come true. Then Pat could post insensitive comments on the mistakes that you have made. My manoverboard pole came white should I sue the manufacturer. Ilike it, it matches the deck. Finally that someone chose not to visit your recommended spot in NZ would offend you.........

One last thing and this is an uneducated guess. My belief is that most of you who have posted negative comments are either jealous of Pat and Ali's financial position, or their youth, or that they have each other. I have two out of the three and I am jealous of the third, but I will not pass judgements on them for that reason. Check out my boat to figure which one of the three I am lacking.

I could go on and on about sailors who crossed the ocean with no idea of lattitude, perhaps they should not have gone until they aquirred that knowledge. Well I imagine that would have pleased the native americans. Don't let me get started there.

Anyhow safe sailing to all. And congratulations to all those that are living their dreams.

Sean

[BC Mike]

Your first post and you use it to do what you accuse others of doing. Might I offer some insight. When you post stuff on a public messaging board, when you perform on the stage, when you write or record a song, when you write an article, expect criticism.
Do not expect everyone to like you for who you are. Let me say it another way: Jesus may love you but many others may think you are an arsehole. Or one other way. If I meet 10 people at random, the odds are always that at least 3 will not like me. It is a fact, something that some of the younger folks have not learned or figured out. There is no need to defend these folks, they do not need defending, they are who they are. They will have people in their camp, and others who are not. If you want to stay up at night trying to figure out why three out of ten folks do not like you, you just waste more time. There is no need to try and label the detractors. Notice I am not making any personal remarks about you. I do not know you, however I wish you all the best in sailing.
Michael

[CaptainK]

Well teamivey,

Just to inform you. That the topic of the fuzzles have been banned, pretty much.

In the past. Alot of trolls have been posting the great, or not-so-great adventures of the fuzzles.

If you want my advice teamivey? Leave any topic pertaining to Pat & Ali, off of this forum. Apparently, as you could tell by now. That we don't want to hear about them. That's my (two) cents there.