Ukraine Boat Builders Inquiry

[Ethereal]

I have spent a lot of time "getting to the point" with Pavel Shaposhnikov and broker Mitch Gutcho of Eglobal Yachts.
Many pictures, some interesting, but no references whatsoever.
I doubt the operation is real !
I have also found out that on the address in Sumy Ukraine there is NO shipyard, and nobody has ever heard of PS Design or Pavel Shaposhnikov !

[wtmf]

I am planning a trip to the Ukraine for the winter and that will be a stop. I will let you know what I find out but that will be this winter.

[osirissail]

All of which illustrates the point that a little bit of skepticism and a lot of diligent research can save you mega thousands of dollars in the end. However, only first hand "eye-balling" the operation can ascertain with certainty whether there is or is not an actual operation/production facility.
- - Years ago there was a "break-through wonder of PV panel efficiency" being touted in the press and solar power community. The company in question went so far as to rent a large hangar/building and put signs and stuff around the facility. But they would never allow anybody inside the building - because it was empty.

[partgypsy]

I have also wondered who e-global yachts is? They are on Yachtworld with hundreds of listings. They want to train brokers (for a fee?). And they seem to claim to have started the CPYB program... quite a feat!
Anyone have any personal financial dealings with them?

[osirissail]

They seem to be a USA internet based yacht brokerage business - See: EGlobal Yachts (Amston, CT)
- - It sounds like they are similar to Avon Cosmetics and Tupperware in that they set up independent "brokers" to sell and then take a cut of the action. Nothing nefarious in the home company but each "independent" may or may not be legitimate.

[audun54]

Hi just to inform the forum that I visited Pavel in Ukraine in the spring and he has subsequently build me a high quality hull for a 60 ft sloop the should sail in May 2012. Will inform you of the completed project.

[osirissail]

Did you take some pictures/photos of the boat/hull as it is progressing? It would be nice to see how the project is doing. . .

[tropicalescape]

I have delt with fabricaters in eastern europe and they have great designs and ideas,when it comes to suppling brand name products Ie,Porcher Marine,Skytex,Stubi or just about any product that is known worldwide they invarible copy them..counterfit..Black Market..looks good on the outside junk on the inside..and I have done business with several diff. companys from Poland ,CZ republic ,Slovakia,Ukraine and they all seem to practice the same type of business format..stick everyone that comes along because you might not see them again..after doing this for a year, I finely stuck with one young man and worked with him thru the problems and now he has a very good business and is reputable and respected in the world market...they were communist for 60 years or more so some patince and understanding is the order of the day..I wouldnt give any money up front and would like others have said stay there with them while it is being built...good luck DVC

[capngeo]

Just for giggles, I ran the address through Google Earth..... Why would there be a shipyard over 1000 miles from open water?

[avb3]

Originally Posted by capngeo

Just for giggles, I ran the address through Google Earth..... Why would there be a shipyard over 1000 miles from open water?

Good question, but then Bavarias are not exactly built near any tides either, are they?

[audun54]

Hi
yes I have many pictures as Pavel updates me with pictures / videos two times every week. I have also been to see him twice and inspected the progress he is making. Will be there in March with a UK surveyor . The boat will be completed in Mykolaiv ,mast, boom rigging etc and sea trials . I am new to the forum and not sure how to send photos but will figure it out soon!

[MacG]

Dohenyboy hits the nail on the very head. If you want any big size boat, go to Turkey. As simple as that.

Perini Navi, Benetti and even some Dutch (Amels) well known yards have some of their hulls build in Turkey, either as bare casco (Perini Navi) or as half finished product, with the finals to be done and completed at the home yard.

The only thing the Turks need is a good design. Designing is not their fortress. Finding a surveyor is not difficult. Many pro yachtsmen live in Turkey the sunny and cheap life. Labour is unbelievable cheap and there is sufficient technical knowledge to carry out most of the tasks.
You need a surveyor on the spot, one who is familiar with the yard and one who is trusted by the yard's management.

Doing business in Russia/Ukraine is asking for problems. They can weld a sound and very decent hull, mostly using military grades of steel and alu. Instead of using AlMg 4,5 they use AlMg 5 or even 6. That material is plenty available.
Nikolaev is the place to go to. There you will find small entrepreneurs who can weld a good and sound hull. For the carpentry and remaining installation you have to go to Turkey.
Doing this, with some supervision, you will have the best of two worlds.

This is only applicable for yachts over 60 ft. Anything under this size is not interesting, pricewise.

The main obstacle for Russia / the Ukraine is financing. There are no banks up there that can or will arrange credit for small businesses. Neither are US banks qualified to negotiate any deal with a Ukrainian Bank or even Turkish bank. They have to ask interference of UK, Dutch or better German banks to guarantee payments. No US bank is trusted anymore. (As I am told).

The thing to do is: buy a design from a top designer, divide the works. Not all works to be done and executed by a single yard.

Doing this, you might save spectacular money.

I know a German owner who went to Rumania for the hull and Turkey for the finishing and outfitting of the yacht. He ended up with a 30 metre motoryacht of decent design, MAN engines and a beautifull interior for less (at that time) a million bucks. (Euro' s, not dollars).

And that' s the way to do it.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by MacG

Dohenyboy hits the nail on the very head. If you want any big size boat, go to Turkey. As simple as that.

Perini Navi, Benetti and even some Dutch (Amels) well known yards have some of their hulls build in Turkey, either as bare casco (Perini Navi) or as half finished product, with the finals to be done and completed at the home yard.

The only thing the Turks need is a good design. Designing is not their fortress. Finding a surveyor is not difficult. Many pro yachtsmen live in Turkey the sunny and cheap life. Labour is unbelievable cheap and there is sufficient technical knowledge to carry out most of the tasks.
You need a surveyor on the spot, one who is familiar with the yard and one who is trusted by the yard's management.

Doing business in Russia/Ukraine is asking for problems. They can weld a sound and very decent hull, mostly using military grades of steel and alu. Instead of using AlMg 4,5 they use AlMg 5 or even 6. That material is plenty available.
Nikolaev is the place to go to. There you will find small entrepreneurs who can weld a good and sound hull. For the carpentry and remaining installation you have to go to Turkey.
Doing this, with some supervision, you will have the best of two worlds.

This is only applicable for yachts over 60 ft. Anything under this size is not interesting, pricewise.

The main obstacle for Russia / the Ukraine is financing. There are no banks up there that can or will arrange credit for small businesses. Neither are US banks qualified to negotiate any deal with a Ukrainian Bank or even Turkish bank. They have to ask interference of UK, Dutch or better German banks to guarantee payments. No US bank is trusted anymore. (As I am told).

The thing to do is: buy a design from a top designer, divide the works. Not all works to be done and executed by a single yard.

Doing this, you might save spectacular money.

I know a German owner who went to Rumania for the hull and Turkey for the finishing and outfitting of the yacht. He ended up with a 30 metre motoryacht of decent design, MAN engines and a beautifull interior for less (at that time) a million bucks. (Euro' s, not dollars).

And that' s the way to do it.

As someone who has done business in Russia and Ukraine, I would add the following:

1. Don't forget that Russia and Ukraine are different countries and in fact, different universes.

2. Ukraine is a very poor and unbelieveably chaotic country. Labor is very cheap there, but productivity is so low that I can't imagine how it would be worthwhile to build a boat there. Perhaps if you find a builder who has a stock of good material at zero cost basis, because it fell off of some military truck. But then you had better watch him like a hawk. You had better be sure he is trustworthy, because you will never win in a Ukrainian court, if it comes to that.

3. Russia is a much more advanced and orderly country, but unfortunately, has very expensive labor, which despite being expensive, is not very productive compared to Western Europe. It's a very expensive country in general, so there's no way that building a boat there could be a good idea. Why, Russians don't even have boats built in Russia.

4. Both countries have the huge disadvantage of not belonging to the WTO and so having huge import tariffs (mostly 20% -- 25% by value) on imported components which is complicated to rebate. You also have VAT which is difficult to rebate. This adds to bureaucratic problems and further increases costs. Or, you have to let your builder bribe customs officials to bring in components without paying the full whack. You can imagine what kind of risks are entailed in that.

5. I have done a lot of good business in the region, I speak the language, and love the people. But I personally would never order a boat there.

6. I had a friend who ordered a large catamaran in Bulgaria. He had a great adventure and eventually sailed it back across the Atlantic to the U.S. I don't think he saved any money in the end, and the problems were huge. Fortunately he was retired at the time and had unlimited time to deal with it, and I think it may have been worth it for the adventure.

7. You really cannot beat buying a production boat, for value for money. If saving money is your main goal, then the money saved by efficient mass production techniques and the huge labor productivity of skilled French workers, plus the money saved on components by large-scale buying, just can't be beat. You will get much more boat for your money.

8. If you must build your own boat, why wouldn't you do it in Turkey? Labor costs are not much higher than in Ukraine (and much lower than in Russia), skills and productivity are high. You still have a problem with tariff barriers, but I am sure that the bureaucracy is easier to negotiate than in Ukraine, and the level of corruption will be much lower.

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by MacG

Dohenyboy hits the nail on the very head. If you want any big size boat, go to Turkey. As simple as that.

Perini Navi, Benetti and even some Dutch (Amels) well known yards have some of their hulls build in Turkey, either as bare casco (Perini Navi) or as half finished product, with the finals to be done and completed at the home yard.

The only thing the Turks need is a good design. Designing is not their fortress. Finding a surveyor is not difficult. Many pro yachtsmen live in Turkey the sunny and cheap life. Labour is unbelievable cheap and there is sufficient technical knowledge to carry out most of the tasks.
You need a surveyor on the spot, one who is familiar with the yard and one who is trusted by the yard's management.

Doing business in Russia/Ukraine is asking for problems. They can weld a sound and very decent hull, mostly using military grades of steel and alu. Instead of using AlMg 4,5 they use AlMg 5 or even 6. That material is plenty available.
Nikolaev is the place to go to. There you will find small entrepreneurs who can weld a good and sound hull. For the carpentry and remaining installation you have to go to Turkey.
Doing this, with some supervision, you will have the best of two worlds.

This is only applicable for yachts over 60 ft. Anything under this size is not interesting, pricewise.

The main obstacle for Russia / the Ukraine is financing. There are no banks up there that can or will arrange credit for small businesses. Neither are US banks qualified to negotiate any deal with a Ukrainian Bank or even Turkish bank. They have to ask interference of UK, Dutch or better German banks to guarantee payments. No US bank is trusted anymore. (As I am told).

The thing to do is: buy a design from a top designer, divide the works. Not all works to be done and executed by a single yard.

Doing this, you might save spectacular money.

I know a German owner who went to Rumania for the hull and Turkey for the finishing and outfitting of the yacht. He ended up with a 30 metre motoryacht of decent design, MAN engines and a beautifull interior for less (at that time) a million bucks. (Euro' s, not dollars).

And that' s the way to do it.

"No US bank is trusted anymore"
that is silly as hell..American banks rule..and you can take that to the bank...DVC

[CrazyRu]

As fluent reader of many russian discussion boards, I'd stay away from anything Pavel Shaposhnikov (Пал Палыч) said or built.