Ukraine Boat Builders Inquiry

[roadrunner250]

@JR:
thks for starting the thread, I have looked around to get any info about that, also in other communities...but no chance.

Originally Posted by Jolly Roger

But there is nothing wrong with exploring things

Yes that's the point, but you have to minimize the risk
btw, congratulation to your boat, green-eyed monster

@fstbttms:
you are right: a lot of red flags.
but I know the country since many years (starting from 1995) and not everybody is looking for your credit card.

[Lakudra]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

I would be very, very wary of dropping $150K on a boat from an unproven builder in a third world country who's biggest export is probably credit card stealing mobsters.

So especially for You guys living in the very centre of 'first world': biggest export for Ukraine is steel/metal products, also for shipbuilding.

[wtmf]

I have been to the Ukraine 5 times on personal business. I speak and read some Russian and can get around fairly well using the rail system. I know that it is affordable to live there until they find out you are a western and then they charge you western prices. I am not a surveyor but if you were interested in paying for me to watch over your project I would be interested in your thoughts.

[wtmf]

I am planning on moving to the Ukraine and could be in Sumy if I had a reason to go there.We can communicate directly via PM. Thank you. Donald

[JBsurfin]

Having personally done business with and visited boat builders in the Ukraine, I can perhaps provide some insight?

Please PM me.

[Ethereal]

Hello guys,
I've also come across this design (Pavel Shaposhnikov Schooner) and am very interested in building one.
The specs look all good. Question now is are these guys for real ?
Reading through the comments on this forum I picked out the "non refundable deposit" etc. This is a big red alert and smells dodgy.
And Vlad: I would like to receive the pictures of the yard !
How do we arrange this (as I'm not a regular user of the forum I need some help)

[Jolly Roger]

As the originator of this post I have now heard from someone who has actually visited this Ukraine operation, and I’m awaiting a report. When and if I receive the facts I will post them, in the meantime, anyone wishing to move forward on this project should make due diligence.

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Jbsurfin.

Is there any reason you can't/won’t offer your advice publicly?

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Ethereal.

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by Ethereal

Hello guys,
I've also come across this design (Pavel Shaposhnikov Schooner) and am very interested in building one.
The specs look all good. Question now is are these guys for real ?
Reading through the comments on this forum I picked out the "non refundable deposit" etc. This is a big red alert and smells dodgy. . . .

Personal opinion based on years in the business - - There is nothing to indicate that the Ukrainian operation is not legitimate but also there is little or no evidence that it is. It is more likely that it is legitimate. If the operation was in Nigeria then I would say it is highly likely it is illegitimate.
- - I have seen custom boats built from yards in the Baltic States and elsewhere and although they look good - when you dig under the floorboards and below the paint you will find a strange assortment of highly unusual, non-marine type materials being used.
- - Since the "market" for private recreational vessels is extremely small in these areas of the world the expertise and access to modern marine-rated materials is very limited. Which is probably why the operation wants a "non-refundable" deposit so they can order and pay for the materials to be shipped into the country from Europe or someplace else where they exist.
- - Second, a major problem is supervision of the building by a knowledgeable "manager" who is working for you. Be it Trinidad, Florida, Ukraine, etc. around the world the yards use "day-laborers" or in any case workers who are more experienced in building local fishing boats than private recreational yachts. Since these local boats don't cross oceans, the standards of construction are quite different. So I would suggest that you would personally need to visit the place, check out their work, their equipment and their workmanship. Then you would have to have an experienced marine manager live there while the boat is being built.
- - I would then say you will have a good boat that you would be satisfied with - but - you will probably spent more money than if you had the work done in South Africa or USA or other major mainline recreational boat building country.
- - In less that one year after the boat I saw built in the Baltic States got to the USA - steel boat- they were chopping it up and selling the steel to a scrap yard. So the guy may have saved a third or so on the money to build the boat, but it lost it all in the end.

[psk125]

To find out more, I used Googlemaps to see if I could learn any thing about Sumy, Ukraine. It is about 250 km East of Kiev. About 500 or more km North of the Black Sea. Phoenix Arizona, would not seem to be the ideal place to find skilled boatbuilders either. Odessa (Ukraine, not Texas) would be a much more likely spot. Even after trucking the finished boat to the Black Sea, you'd still be a thousand miles from the Mediterranean. In a boat whose equipment labels and instructions might be in English, Russian, or Ukrainian. Installed by guys whose English or Russian might not be as good as your Ukrainian. It might be time to suggest some Latin:
caveat emptor.

[dohenyboy]

I have been to Sumy a couple dozen times. Nice little city but I never heard of any boat building there. Nikolaev has a ship building university and I heard they build some decent commercial ships.
Ukraine has some very smart people in it, but you would have to be there in person all the time or deal with one of the major shipbuilding centers. They would not have the materials to do other than steel boats. Now if you wanted to get a boat hull welded together out of some CNC design that would be interesting.


Turkey is the place to go in that part of the world for yacht building, lower prices for potentially world class workmanship.

[JBsurfin]

I would love to, but...
PM is best to get full details.
Jon

[avb3]

Originally Posted by psk125

To find out more, I used Googlemaps to see if I could learn any thing about Sumy, Ukraine. It is about 250 km East of Kiev. About 500 or more km North of the Black Sea. Phoenix Arizona, would not seem to be the ideal place to find skilled boatbuilders either. ... It might be time to suggest some Latin: caveat emptor.

Not saying I don't agree with your Latin comment, however do you know how far inland Giebelstadt is?

Giebelstadt is the where the Bavaria Yachts are built and headquartered.

Who knows, maybe that is the business model that is attempted to be emulated.

[JBsurfin]

Sorry for the delay on a response, but my Ukraine atty is reviewing as to not affect the litigation.
Now anytime you put the words litigation and boat builder together that usually represents a problem, usually for the Builder.

Can you now understand the Latin phrase?

Jon

[Jolly Roger]

Surely there is no need for attorneys over this matter? All we all wanted to know was whether this was a genuine set-up or not. Unfortunately the Ukraine business reputation flies before this kind of deal, and for him to demand a non-returnable deposit - before he even discusses inventory and prices - goes against all normal boat building practices. So people smell a rat.
A simple explanation of what you did and what you saw would enlighten everyone. You don't have to state an opinion, because anyone who did not visit personally would only have themselves to blame anyway.
I've bought another boat now, so I'm just interested whether my gut instinct was correct, probably the same for everyone.