Tragic accident on East Passage near Newport

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Here is Illusion’s original statement which heavily implies the powerboater is always at fault or possilby mentally challenged in some way.

t.

What you inferred isn’t what I implied. Not the first time I might add when you confused the two.

[Pegu Club]

Not knowing all the details of the accident in the Newport area, I cannot make an informed comment about that specific incident.

It is not of course all power boaters by any means, but I find by and large that power boaters have no idea of how reckless their behavior is when encountering other boaters in close quarters on the water. And by no means do I think sailors are without their own brand of obliviousness. It is the rate of speed that causes the issues at close quarters. Both parties are required to do what they can do to avoid colliding, but the onus is on the power boat to restrict their speed or change course when approaching close proximity to other boaters so as to mitigate the out come or possibility of collision and injury. Being that a sail boat on average is moving at three to seven knots, it cannot maneuver quickly no matter how much one may want it to. The onus is on the power boater.

Fair winds to all,

[tweitz]

I have always had a problem resolving two of the rules in real life: As the stand-on vessel, when under sail, I am obligated to maintain course and speed. I am also obligated to maneuver to avoid collision. I always keep a careful watch and am never traveling as fast as those catamarans or most of the power boats in my area. Nonetheless, when I see a boat headed on a collision course, by the simple means of the angle not changing, there comes a time when the duty to avoid collision supersedes the duty to maintain course and speed. I try not to get to that stage, but what happens if I still see the other boat maintaining a collision course and I turn to port just as he turns to starboard? It always strikes me as a problem, though the biggest problem is if he strikes me with his boat. I know it is a matter of judgement, and I always act to avoid it getting this close, but sometimes it is pretty hard to do.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

A couple of times over this past season, one very memorable time in particular we’ve encountered while under power (making us a powered vessel) a sailing vessel headed directly at us. As we manuevered to our starboard, the sailing vessel continued to sail on a direct collision course. In the end we corrected 40 degrees to starboard acting according to the rules, only to have the sailboat keep correcting its course to be a direct collision course. At the last moment, it became apparent that the sailboat intended all along to pass directly off our stern and to not give way. We had done all we could possibly do to avoid a collision including turing 90 degrees to starboard in the end. The situation transpired over more than five minutes... maybe even ten, plenty of time for the sailboat to either go straight on or maneuver to their starboard according to the rules.

I'm trying to picture this, but having a hard time trying. What direction was the sailboat coming from? If they were aiming behind you, why did you have to alter course? (Also, why were they altering their course?) Could you have ducked in behind them?


Not judging, just trying to understand the scenario.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

How hard is it for a powerboat to stay away from a sailboat and especially a regatta? [rhetorical question]



We've sailed around Newport for decades and there is no plausible rational excuse for a power boater to hit a sailboat unless the operator is among the large 'more money than brains' navy. Tragic and avoidable is a terrible combination.

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Making childish inappropriate personal attacks is unacceptable here as in anyplace. A little introspection on your part might be more appropriate.

Regardless, power boats are far more easily controlled than is any sailboat which prompts my original question regarding what rational or plausible excuse might exist to justify any power boat hitting and subsequently killing any sailboat/occupant.

A question has thus far gone unanswered ( hint - rules are rules, not an answer).

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

What you inferred isn’t what I implied. Not the first time I might add when you confused the two.

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Here is Illusion’s original statement which heavily implies the powerboater is always at fault or possilby mentally challenged in some way.

Here are your statements and my response, then what exactly did you mean by making them?

Please explain.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by tweitz

I have always had a problem resolving two of the rules in real life: As the stand-on vessel, when under sail, I am obligated to maintain course and speed. I am also obligated to maneuver to avoid collision. I always keep a careful watch and am never traveling as fast as those catamarans or most of the power boats in my area. Nonetheless, when I see a boat headed on a collision course, by the simple means of the angle not changing, there comes a time when the duty to avoid collision supersedes the duty to maintain course and speed. I try not to get to that stage, but what happens if I still see the other boat maintaining a collision course and I turn to port just as he turns to starboard? It always strikes me as a problem, though the biggest problem is if he strikes me with his boat. I know it is a matter of judgement, and I always act to avoid it getting this close, but sometimes it is pretty hard to do.

Sail/Power, Starboard tack/Port tack usually works, but not always. Don't let it get so close it's an emergency, unless you're racing and you know the other boat is competent enough to do the right thing.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

I'm trying to picture this, but having a hard time trying. What direction was the sailboat coming from? If they were aiming behind you, why did you have to alter course? (Also, why were they altering their course?) Could you have ducked in behind them?


Not judging, just trying to understand the scenario.

I’m sorry my fault.

Head on collision. First sited sailboat 2-3 miles ahead when I determined by sighting the vessel using pulpit, that we were on a collision course. First noted the vessel 3-4 miles out, but unable to determine at that point due to irratic maneuvering by the other vessel if a collision situation existed. I First began steering to starboard in 10 degree increments with approximately two miles between us. The sailboat was on a broad reach with only the genoa out, we were motoring into the wind, opposite the sailboat. Wind speed maybe 12 knots.

After a 40 degree course change and still realizing they would be too close for comfort, I then blasted the air horn and turned hard 90 degrees to starboard. The sailor was in his cockpit when they passed by... not apparently using the head to pee.

We passed maybe three boat lengths 150ft apart port to port, then the sailboat turned again to cross our stern.

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by Pegu Club

Not knowing all the details of the accident in the Newport area, I cannot make an informed comment about that specific incident.

It is not of course all power boaters by any means, but I find by and large that power boaters have no idea of how reckless their behavior is when encountering other boaters in close quarters on the water. And by no means do I think sailors are without their own brand of obliviousness. It is the rate of speed that causes the issues at close quarters. Both parties are required to do what they can do to avoid colliding, but the onus is on the power boat to restrict their speed or change course when approaching close proximity to other boaters so as to mitigate the out come or possibility of collision and injury. Being that a sail boat on average is moving at three to seven knots, it cannot maneuver quickly no matter how much one may want it to. The onus is on the power boater.

Fair winds to all,

Where did you find that in COLREGS????

EDIT! I find your comment on recklessness kindly omits arrogant sailboats who when racing don't give a damn about others including sailboats not involved in their race. OH.... a REGATTA!!! Damn the torpedoes.............. get out of their way! BULL POOP!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by tweitz

I have always had a problem resolving two of the rules in real life: As the stand-on vessel, when under sail, I am obligated to maintain course and speed. I am also obligated to maneuver to avoid collision. I always keep a careful watch and am never traveling as fast as those catamarans or most of the power boats in my area. Nonetheless, when I see a boat headed on a collision course, by the simple means of the angle not changing, there comes a time when the duty to avoid collision supersedes the duty to maintain course and speed. I try not to get to that stage, but what happens if I still see the other boat maintaining a collision course and I turn to port just as he turns to starboard? It always strikes me as a problem, though the biggest problem is if he strikes me with his boat. I know it is a matter of judgement, and I always act to avoid it getting this close, but sometimes it is pretty hard to do.

Let me try to help with this. It's a good question.


The Rules say that as the stand-on vessel you MAY leave off holding course and speed when you have a reasonable doubt that the give-way vessel intends to, or can resolve the situation with its maneuver. You MUST leave off holding course and speed and start maneuvering yourself, when the action of the give-way vessel cannot resolve the situation.



So what it means is that you are obligated to give the give-way vessel a decent chance to deal with the crossing. You hold your course and speed so that the give-way vessel knows how to turn -- exactly avoiding the situation you describe where vessels maneuver into each other.


Another important point in that is to be sure that your maneuver is large and obvious, so that it is visible to the other vessel what your intentions are and what you are doing. If you make a large and obvious turn, then he will see that you are maneuvering yourself and he will be more careful not to maneuver into you. Small and frequent course corrections are very bad, when you're doing collision avoidance.



How long you need to be "holding still" cannot really be answered with any hard or fast rule. But if you are making much less speed than the give-way vessel then you are kind of stuck because you will have to take quite early action if you are to hope to deal with the crossing yourself. So you have to use judgement here, and in doubt use the VHF (if he's visible on AIS) and inform the give-way vessel that you are maneuvering yourself and he can carry on. The object being to avoid the situation which you describe where he wakes up at the last minute and starts maneuvering, without realizing that you've changed course.


Does this help? In any case, the key point is to always be vigilant, continuously assessing the developing risk of collision, and take action in enough time, not letting it develop into a situation you won't be able to get out of. Try to evaluate the intentions of the other vessel, and in doubt, communicate. If you are dealing with ships, be aware of their usual decision points.

[Pegu Club]

Originally Posted by foggysail

Where did you find that in COLREGS????

EDIT! I find your comment on recklessness kindly omits arrogant sailboats who when racing don't give a damn about others including sailboats not involved in their race. OH.... a REGATTA!!! Damn the torpedoes.............. get out of their way! BULL POOP!

I did not insinuate in any fashion what you said, you obvious anger clouds your good senses my friend. You appear to have missed what I typed, I stated that sail boaters have their own brand of obliviousness, and should do what they can to avoid collisions, but it appears you missed that, your words say that you think a power boater should not reduce speed or change course to avoid an impact in a close quarters Situation, this says a lot.

Please calmly re-read my post, understand the actual words used, we are not far a part, but likely talking across purposes.

Fair winds,

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by Pegu Club

I did not insinuate in any fashion what you said, you obvious anger clouds your good senses my friend. You appear to have missed what I typed, I stated that sail boaters have their own brand of obliviousness, and should do what they can to avoid collisions, but it appears you missed that, your words say that you think a power boater should not reduce speed or change course to avoid an impact in a close quarters Situation, this says a lot.

Please calmly re-read my post, understand the actual words used, we are not far a part, but likely talking across purposes.

Fair winds,

Suggest you re-read your post! I certainly understand what you posted!

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I’m sorry my fault.

Head on collision. First sited sailboat 2-3 miles ahead when I determined by sighting the vessel using pulpit, that we were on a collision course. First noted the vessel 3-4 miles out, but unable to determine at that point due to irratic maneuvering by the other vessel if a collision situation existed. I First began steering to starboard in 10 degree increments with approximately two miles between us. The sailboat was on a broad reach with only the genoa out, we were motoring into the wind, opposite the sailboat. Wind speed maybe 12 knots.

After a 40 degree course change and still realizing they would be too close for comfort, I then blasted the air horn and turned hard 90 degrees to starboard. The sailor was in his cockpit when they passed by... not apparently using the head to pee.

We passed maybe three boat lengths 150ft apart port to port, then the sailboat turned again to cross our stern.

Ouch. That IS painful.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by foggysail

Jim, I answered your question in my very first sentence.

Here is that sentence: "Jim......I find the situation you allude to a rare happening."

I don't see an answer there, but perhaps I am dim.

But the point that I'm trying to get across is that a power boat can and should avoid steering close enough to a sailing boat (or any boat) that a sudden and unexpected maneuver of the sailboat will result in a collision.

Yes, the sailboat is not supposed to make such maneuvers, but the constraints of possible sailing angles, windshifts, and other events can make such a deviation unavoidable, and it is poor seamanship to direct ones course close to such a sailing vessel.

Yet we, and most other sailors have had power vessels pass very close by and with big speed differentials, and it is this practice that I think is in our minds in this discussion. We don't know anything about the specifics of the subject collision, so the discussion has devolved to generalities.

And just to remind you of my original question to you, here's your post to which I was replying:

Sure, just as absurd as you implying “no plausible rational excuse for a power boater to hit a sailboat” Yes, your sailboat attitude projected into your post is clear. It appears to me you might be part of the problem.

.

I ask again, what plausible rational excuse for a power boater to hit a sailboat exists? You say that it is absurd to say that it does not exist...

Jim

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

:
.

I ask again, what plausible rational excuse for a power boater to hit a sailboat exists? You say that it is absurd to say that it does not exist...

Jim

There is no excuse for hitting anyone but I can see how it could easily enough happen.
One I can think of is in and around manly harbour on weekends or when regattas are on.

Lots of kids and kidults tacking small dinghy's all the way up to etchels in channels on their way out to clearer water not looking or simply ignoring what is coming up behind them and throwing tacks under your bow.

Used to have it happen to us with our sailing vessels, but they were lighter, more maneuverable and had better visibility.
Now, the maneuverability is not as good, we are constrained due to physical size and depth and visibility in certain sectors are diminished.

No drama for us now as we never go into harbour at busy times anyway, but for those that do......

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

There is no excuse for hitting anyone but I can see how it could easily enough happen.
One I can think of is in and around manly harbour on weekends or when regattas are on.

Lots of kids and kidults tacking small dinghy's all the way up to etchels in channels on their way out to clearer water not looking or simply ignoring what is coming up behind them and throwing tacks under your bow.

Used to have it happen to us with our sailing vessels, but they were lighter, more maneuverable and had better visibility.
Now, the maneuverability is not as good, we are constrained due to physical size and depth and visibility in certain sectors are diminished.

No drama for us now as we never go into harbour at busy times anyway, but for those that do......

Oh, yeah, we have been there and done that! And the dinghies are at fault, since we are constrained by draft to the channel (but not displaying the proper day shapes as a rule). None the less, their bad behavior does not generate a rational or legal reason to collide with them, and we've had to hit reverse and stop a few times to avoid the little buggers! In general, your advice to avoid those times is good but not always convenient due to tides, etc. We arrived from offshore once, back when customs was in Manly harbour, and found a Laser championship in progress, with several hundred boats involved and multiple courses, all centered on the end of that channel. Daunting, it was, but by waiting about for a while, we snuck in without hitting any of them.

I thought the race organizers should be keel hauled for setting their courses close to a busy and restrictive channel... talk about arrogant!

BTW, I like your term "kidult" and may borrow it at times!

Jim