There is no Planet B

[serol1971]

Originally Posted by ZipTie

There is no Planet B

2015 Paris Climate Pledges have an ambitious goal which would require zero level emissions sometime between 2030 and 2050.

With nearly every nation on earth having now pledged to gradually reduce emissions of the heat-trapping gases that are warming our planet.

The Paris Agreement marks “the beginning of the end of the fossil-fuel era,”

So where do cruisers go from here? No, diesel or gas motors or generators.

Sail ?
Solar ?
Electric ?
Fuel Cell ?
Wind Turbine ?

Just want to link these related threads. ..
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...es-209754.html

[SV THIRD DAY]

Peak Oil...the world is running out....bomb
The Population Bomb....the world is running out of food....Bomb.
Global Warming is going to make the Planet uninhabitable....Bomb.

The voices of doom and gloom are always wrong because they can't understand or account for a little fact of human existence called Innovation. The things the doom and gloom experts worry about today will go away due to innovation not through Carbon Taxes or Giving up meat. But the Control and Power freaks will never learn because there is power and money to be made in the MMGWH

[hpeer]

Rich,

Past returns are no guarantee of future performance.

By the above logic you are immortal because you haven’t died yet. That’s why you have no life insurance policy right?

I get that is extremely difficult for certain folks to understand, and I don’t know why.

From my perspective it is a simple as understanding that eventually a membrane will need to be replaced, and eventually your fuel tank will run dry.

Yes human innovation has gotten us here, working within the constraints of our resources. But eventually those resources do wear out, just as our bodies do.

Nothing is infinite, no perpetual motion machines, no free lunch.

With all do respect, I just don’t understand the opposition.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

Peak Oil...the world is running out....bomb
The Population Bomb....the world is running out of food....Bomb.
Global Warming is going to make the Planet uninhabitable....Bomb.

The voices of doom and gloom are always wrong because they can't understand or account for a little fact of human existence called Innovation. The things the doom and gloom experts worry about today will go away due to innovation not through Carbon Taxes or Giving up meat. But the Control and Power freaks will never learn because there is power and money to be made in the MMGWH

I would agree with that. There is no shortage of oil. Whether you are prepared to pay increased prices in the future to extract or manufacture as the Germans did in WW2 is a different question.

Aeroplanes might be a problem if fuel prices rise and I can't see LifePO4 powering a 747 across the Atlantic. However, with a bit of innovation we could have the next generation of air ships. Lots of space for solar panels and some sails.

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by hpeer

With all do respect, I just don’t understand the opposition.

To understand the Opposition you first must properly understand the motives and true goals of those behind such proposals as the "Green New Deal". Green is simply the new red. The Socialists/Fascists have simply covered themselves with Green but their goal is the same...Control over the lives of others. The Destruction of Capitalism is their Goal. Once you come to terms with that...it's easy to understand why they must be opposed and defeated. The MMGWC is dangerous to Freedom and it's Freedom that has driven the technological advances through Capitalism, rather than command and control. If you like Venezuela you will like the world these Green New Deal Cultists have in store for you.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

Peak Oil...the world is running out....bomb
The Population Bomb....the world is running out of food....Bomb.
Global Warming is going to make the Planet uninhabitable....Bomb.

The voices of doom and gloom are always wrong because they can't understand or account for a little fact of human existence called Innovation. The things the doom and gloom experts worry about today will go away due to innovation not through Carbon Taxes or Giving up meat. But the Control and Power freaks will never learn because there is power and money to be made in the MMGWH

I wish I had a dollar for every doomsday prediction that wasn't even close!

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

To understand the Opposition you first must properly understand the motives and true goals of those behind such proposals as the "Green New Deal". Green is simply the new red.

Well said. We must remember that the co-chair of the UN's IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change) said that this is not about environmental policy. Rather it is a scheme to transfer wealth from those who produce to those who do not produce.

If we examine the myth of carbon causing global warming, we can see why sailors using a few gallons of diesel once in a while doesn't make a whit of difference.

Carbon is the least effective of all the so-called greenhouse gases. Carbon from all sources accounts for just four tenths of one percent! This is per the ESRL (Earth System Research Laboratory) of NOAA (National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration). Methane is hundreds of times more potent and water vapor is thousands of times more potent. Also, the sun is the primary driver of Earth's temperature, assisted by the Earth's orbit, tilt, and wobble. Evidence of this is that all of the planets are warming. Also, the temperatures of the Earth over the last five hundred years or so directly correspond to sunspot activity.

Why focus on carbon? The answer is easy and one just needs to follow the money. It can be taxed!

Rest easy and feel free to fire up your diesel engine, or even the evil gas iron sail, when the wind dies and you need to get into port. The amount of carbon you are emitting is so infinitesimal that you should have no trouble sleeping!

For those who choose to believe in the all powerful carbon atom, you may also rest easy. Today's engines are far more efficient than in years past and the amount of carbon each puts out is greatly reduced. Power plants are cleaner than ever and this is true of all energy production. It is only getting better and better.

[mrm]

I think you needlessly make it political and I am with hpeer on all counts.
It is really as simple as trying to sustain an infinite growth model in a finite world. Logically impossible, no matter what innovations will take place - they may delay the inevitable though, I'll grant you that.


Please look at human population growth
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._curve.svg.png (from Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_overpopulation )

and consider, that the size of our planet stopped changing quite some time ago. Sure, there is still some land with forest to burn/cut down and convert to fields, but it is debatable whether it is good to do so, and even if it is, these land reserves will eventually end too. What then?

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

To understand the Opposition you first must properly understand the motives and true goals of those behind such proposals as the "Green New Deal". Green is simply the new red. The Socialists/Fascists have simply covered themselves with Green but their goal is the same...Control over the lives of others. The Destruction of Capitalism is their Goal. Once you come to terms with that...it's easy to understand why they must be opposed and defeated. The MMGWC is dangerous to Freedom and it's Freedom that has driven the technological advances through Capitalism, rather than command and control. If you like Venezuela you will like the world these Green New Deal Cultists have in store for you.

[hpeer]

Rich,

Past returns are no guarantee of future performance.

By the above logic you are immortal because you haven’t died yet. That’s why you have no life insurance policy right?

I get that is extremely difficult for certain folks to understand, and I don’t know why.

From my perspective it is a simple as understanding that eventually a membrane will need to be replaced, and eventually your fuel tank will run dry.

Yes human innovation has gotten us here, working within the constraints of our resources. But eventually those resources do wear out, just as our bodies do.

Nothing is infinite, no perpetual motion machines, no free lunch.

With all do respect, I just don’t understand the opposition.

[Suijin]

I’m doing my part, one rear car window at a time.

Fortunately, global population growth has slowed dramatically. And hydroponic and other high density low land use agricultural methods are gaining traction. We can only hope both trends continue.

[mrm]

Originally Posted by Suijin

Attachment 186235

I’m doing my part, one rear car window at a time.

Fortunately, global population growth has slowed dramatically. And hydroponic and other high density low land use agricultural methods are gaining traction. We can only hope both trends continue.

Slowed, but the trend hasn't reversed yet. Yes, we can only hope..

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by mrm

Slowed, but the trend hasn't reversed yet. Yes, we can only hope..

don't worry the solar grand minima we are now entering into will cool the planet and significantly reduce food supply and growing seasons.


Many more people die from cold and it's long term effects of dropping the planets temperature by 1℃ than from a little warming .

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

To understand the Opposition you first must properly understand the motives and true goals of those behind such proposals as the "Green New Deal". Green is simply the new red. The Socialists/Fascists have simply covered themselves with Green but their goal is the same...Control over the lives of others. The Destruction of Capitalism is their Goal. Once you come to terms with that...it's easy to understand why they must be opposed and defeated. The MMGWC is dangerous to Freedom and it's Freedom that has driven the technological advances through Capitalism, rather than command and control. If you like Venezuela you will like the world these Green New Deal Cultists have in store for you.

Once again, ideology trumps rationality.



Most conservatives cannot abide the solution to global warming: ie:strong government regulations and a government-led effort to accelerate clean energy technologies into the market.
I have a different proposition; if you hate government intrusion into people’s lives, you’d better stop catastrophic global warming, because nothing drives a country more towards activist government than scarcity and deprivation. But if we hold off today on government action that focuses for several decades on preventing catastrophe, we will almost guarantee the need for extreme and intrusive government action in the post-2030 era, perhaps lasting centuries. Only Big Government, which conservatives say they don’t want, can relocate millions of citizens, build massive levees, ration crucial resources like water and arable land, mandate harsh and rapid reductions in certain kinds of energy — all of which will be inevitable if we don’t act now. How ironic, and tragic, it would be if conservatives’ short-term quest to avoid a bigger government led to a permanently huge government.

There is, of course, an irony, in that many people who deplore being called a denier often refer to people who accept the consensus as "warmists", “warmistas”, “global warmmongers”, "alarmists", "climate Nazis", or "Green New Deal Cultists".

Climate change denial extends across a spectrum, ranging from arguments against solutions, to assertions that scientific findings have been exaggerated, but they all tend to return to a central point: Blaming a small number of alarmists for perpetuating large-scale fraud that has convinced thousands of scientists and countries to devote billions of dollars to combating a myth that the planet is warming. The climate-denial world has an even more tightly knit web of industry-connected groups, shown for decades to undermine the science out of self- preservation and profit. Organizations like the Heritage Foundation and the more far-flung Heartland Institute work to provide a patina of intellectual legitimacy for the same talking points that wind up on Fox News, and on social media.
Though the science itself is nonpartisan, the belief or disbelief in climate change is not, embodying many of the establishment norms that large swaths of the GOP have come to reject, from accepting science to embracing global cooperation as a solution to complex problems.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Ideology trumps rationality. Most conservatives cannot abide the solution to global warming: ie:strong government regulations and a government-led effort to accelerate clean energy technologies into the market.
I have a different proposition; if you hate government intrusion into people’s lives, you’d better stop catastrophic global warming, because nothing drives a country more towards activist government than scarcity and deprivation. But if we hold off today on government action that focuses for several decades on preventing catastrophe, we will almost guarantee the need for extreme and intrusive government action in the post-2030 era, perhaps lasting centuries. Only Big Government — which conservatives say they don’t want — can relocate millions of citizens, build massive levees, ration crucial resources like water and arable land, mandate harsh and rapid reductions in certain kinds of energy — all of which will be inevitable if we don’t act now. How ironic — and tragic — it would be if conservates’ short-term quest to avoid a bigger government led to a permamently huge government.

There is, of course, an irony, in that many people who deplore being called a denier often refer to people who accept the consensus as "warmists", “warmistas”, “global warmmongers”, "alarmists", "climate Nazis", or "Green New Deal Cultists".

Climate change denial extends across a spectrum, ranging from arguments against solutions, to assertions that scientific findings have been exaggerated, but they all tend to return to a central point: Blaming a small number of alarmists for perpetuating large-scale fraud that has convinced thousands of scientists and countries to devote billions of dollars to combating a myth that the planet is warming. The climate-denial world has an even more tightly knit web of industry-connected groups, shown for decades to undermine the science out of self- preservation and profit. Organizations like the Heritage Foundation and the more far-flung Heartland Institute work to provide a patina of intellectual legitimacy for the same talking points that wind up on Fox News, and on social media.
Though the science itself is nonpartisan, the belief or disbelief in climate change is not, embodying many of the establishment norms that large swaths of the GOP have come to reject, from accepting science to embracing global cooperation as a solution to complex problems.

big government. Code for socialist government.
Funny when we reduced government controls here our co2 emissions were significantly reduced due to the free market finding new ways to do things .

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

To understand the Opposition you first must properly understand the motives and true goals of those behind such proposals as the "Green New Deal". Green is simply the new red. The Socialists/Fascists have simply covered themselves with Green but their goal is the same...Control over the lives of others. The Destruction of Capitalism is their Goal. Once you come to terms with that...it's easy to understand why they must be opposed and defeated. The MMGWC is dangerous to Freedom and it's Freedom that has driven the technological advances through Capitalism, rather than command and control. If you like Venezuela you will like the world these Green New Deal Cultists have in store for you.

Rich,
I think the NGD is a POS made by political opportunist and that it will unfortunately set any real progress back a long way. There are bits and pieces, perhaps 20% that I think are worthwhile. I worked in the field and consequently I think High Speed Rail is nothing but a subsidy for the upper middle class.

But that is a distraction from the science of the matter.

My personal recommendations weloukd be:
Reduce our energy usage, it’s nust wasteful
Stop development, nothing is infinite, someday will will run out of resources. Reuse as much as we can.
Stop immigration, our population would be stable or shrinking if not for immigration.

There is not one thing in our world that can sustain infinite expansion. As children we stop growing. Our plants grow, mature, and go to seed. So do we personally.

Can you imagine a USA that grows in population indefinitely? When do we put a limit on our population? We are at 350 million. 700 million? 5 billion? When do we put the brakes on?

What will be left if we don’t?

I’d as soon put the brakes on now, while we still have something left.

But whenever the brakes go on the. There will be a transition away from the infinite growth economy, and it will be a hard transition. I prefer to make the transition under our own control, not because of some bubble collapse.