The Philosophy Behind Sailing Simply and Cheaply

[conachair]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Interestingly, zen and tao will give two simple, but opposite, clues:

Zen : sail and like the way you sail.

Tao : sail the way you like to sail.

;-)
b.

Ouch, my head hurts! Don't know how i like to sail. Without breaking too much!

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by foolishsailor

(...) Poverty level (...) which is approx 11k/year.(...)

Methinks @ 11k a year I could call this mortail coil quits, cast the lines and stay in the islands for ever!

b.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Methinks @ 11k a year I could call this mortail coil quits, cast the lines and stay in the islands for ever!
b.

At the risk of undoing the efforts to get this thread back on track, it's important to be aware that poverty is largely a relative issue. Comparing absolute income in dollars across differing local economies says very little about the realities of impoverished people here (or there).

Beyond the level of starvation (which is a reality for 1 billion people), poverty needs to be understood in terms of the local society and economy. Not sure about the US, but in Canada a $11,000 income would mean the person could not house, cloth and feed themselves. It is irrelevant that they could live like kings in Burkina Faso on this income.

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

You don't think we're mature enough to have a reasonable conversation about the value of specific cruising tools without getting into a "my way is the best way" fight?

... yeah, you're probably right .

Wow, you sure miss a lot when you are 12 time zones away.

I have to agree with conachair on the list thing and I don't think that's what he said Mike. There is no shortage of "lists" out there if that's what you want. But lists are so left-brain thinking and it seems to me we need more right-brain thinking. This is about "philosophy" right?

[RabidRabbit]

I avoided this thread until today and after reading it I was hoping for more. I'm a bit confused, I'm a tech systems geek so everything is complicated. Its been said here though that its not about what you have. So can I really be a simple cruiser if im obsessed with A/C, fridge,windlass, ect...
Simple means different things to different people.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Doodles

(...) But lists are so left-brain thinking and it seems to me we need more right-brain thinking. (...)

This is a well rotten right wing talk. Communism is as good a system as any and if it did not work twas only because Lenin was goofy.

b.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by RabidRabbit

(...) Simple means different things to different people.

Most definitions of 'simple' stress simplicity. Which one do you follow?

b.

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by RabidRabbit

I avoided this thread until today and after reading it I was hoping for more. I'm a bit confused, I'm a tech systems geek so everything is complicated. Its been said here though that its not about what you have. So can I really be a simple cruiser if im obsessed with A/C, fridge,windlass, ect...
Simple means different things to different people.

The simple answer is ... no.

You need to get with the program and don't be making trouble with talk like that. You are likely to start a revolt or something.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Doodles

Wow, you sure miss a lot when you are 12 time zones away.

I have to agree with conachair on the list thing and I don't think that's what he said Mike. There is no shortage of "lists" out there if that's what you want. But lists are so left-brain thinking and it seems to me we need more right-brain thinking. This is about "philosophy" right?

Sorry Doodles, it was my poor attempt at humour. No offence intended.

[Doodles]

No problem. I often miss the humor in comments.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by RabidRabbit

I avoided this thread until today and after reading it I was hoping for more. I'm a bit confused, I'm a tech systems geek so everything is complicated. Its been said here though that its not about what you have. So can I really be a simple cruiser if im obsessed with A/C, fridge,windlass, ect...
Simple means different things to different people.

Of course, simple is a completely relative term. There is no "right" way to cruise. You can have a boat loaded to the gunnels with sophistication and that may be right for you. Like you I'm a geek, I like fixings things , I like complicating things at times. ( there's always room for one more indicator led) what I'm comfortable with is not the same as the next person.

Nothing is "right" persay. What works for Lin and Larry may or may not work for you. That doesn't invalidate their views OR yours.

To return briefly. Cruising/sailing is undoubtably a first world rich mans activity. In fact it's almost an exclusive Western European and it's former colonies activities. In fact it's nearly exclusively a Anglo Saxo/french thing, with a smattering of Europeans added. It's relies on the existence of a first world support network and supply chain. Does that mean there are no others sailing around. , of course not, bit they are statistically irrelevant for most people sailing is a hobby like golf , skiing etc. they will spend significant amounts of income on it. And they will use it quite infrequently. They will generally stay within 30 miles of their marina. That's the vast majority. They will demand a boat with a fair proportion of their home comforts. The support infrastructure is there to support them , they don't spend every waking hour fixing things , they pay people to do that .

The Rest are a small group of cruisers and other groups that are dedicated to their boat, they (we) are the hippies of the sailing world, we are tiny in number, we form peculiar beliefs based on our own experiences, we run the gamut from the bucket and chuck it brigade to the all singing all dancing ice cream maker aboard types.

In reality so what.

Dave

[callmecrazy]

I'm not sure that simplicity is entirely relative.

I think there's a large number of people/sailors that believe they are living simply, or that their boats are simple, but in reality, it's not...

I used to be a pro-geek as well. Gave it up for a different lifestyle long before I found sailing. But once I started simplifying my life (on purpose), I began to realize just how overly complicated it was in the past.

There's no question that a boat loaded with all the latest toys is more complicated than one without. And there's no question that managing all those things is more complicated than not. It's just that some people believe they are 'good' at managing those things, so they think they don't need to simplify. They might believe they are living more simply compared to the life the had on land, and they are.. but that doesn't mean they are 'living simply' in a general sense.

I'd go as far to say that if you are not actively simplifying your boat, and your life, then you are not living simply. Unless you've been doing it for years and are completely satisfied with the results, there's always something else left to be simplified.

It's almost the exact opposite of what is 'normal'. On a normal cruising boat, there's always something that needs to be better, or bigger, or nicer, or added. On a simple boat, there's always something something that needs to go away, or reduced, or 'maintained' rather than upgraded, or made 'simpler' etc...

It's a frame of mind, which is relative, but that is not the entirety of it. I know land-based people that believe they are living a simple life. Take care of the kids, keep the job, pay the mortgage, and life is simple... right? Yet these same people are far more stressed then they would ever admit, they are caught in cycles they don't recognize, they still trying to keep up with the jones, and they are running the same rat race as everyone else.

So just because they think their life is simple, is it? I think they're freakin delusional myself. I know I was back then...

[barnakiel]

Yep. I never saw sailors / cruisers as different in any way from the land crowd. We are using a different way of moving about, that's all.

But I can tell you that some, and more than a few, of my sailing friends who have boats with many bells and whistles they swear (sure, maybe they only strike a pose) that they hate the complexity of their boats. Somehow they never complain about complexity of their apartments.

So maybe there is something in sailing that makes one drift towards the 'less is better' attitude.

b.

[Doodles]

Sure it's all relative, otherwise we would all have to be meditating on a mountain top to be really living the simple life.

[callmecrazy]

Originally Posted by Doodles

Sure it's all relative, otherwise we would all have to be meditating on a mountain top to be really living the simple life.

Exactly.

It's an active process. If you're not simplifying, then you're not really living it.

Don't get me wrong. I understand that there is a certain amount of gadgetry that has to go into boating, and there's a no real way to be completely self sufficient on a boat. I'm just saying, I don't think it's relative just because somebody with a soda fountain, watermaker, electric toilets, twin engines, radars, etc.. etc.. thinks they have a simple boat.
They do not. Just because they think they do, doesn't make it 'relative'. It makes them incorrect, or more accurately, delusional