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Old 30-05-2022, 13:23   #31
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Re: The ins and outs of mainsail furling

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Originally Posted by KayZee View Post
What should I know about boom angle? You mean vertically with the topping lift?
Yep, with the topping lift. A bit above horizontal, such that any vertical battens or the vertical edge of the UV protective cover are parallel to the mast, seems to work.

I've also run across some slightly contradictory recommendations as to when to ease the vang:

For example, US Spars instructions indicate to "Release vang and mainsheet so that the leach has little or no tension. Maintaining a slight tension on the outhaul line, furl the sail into the mast with the inhaul line try and keep the wind ahead. (A slight pressure from the wind will prevent creases in the sail). Insure that the furling drum has two or three turns of rope left on it when the sail is fully furled...". This is similar to the Neil Pryde videos linked below.

In contrast, the Bavaria Yachts site says "The sail should be rolled up firmly and without creases. We achieve this by setting the boom vang tightly when furling and at the same time keeping tension on the outhaul line."

When furling, it is important that everything is well-lubricated, and also that the boom is at least angled slightly upwards. Every little bit of friction adds up quickly! If the boom is not free to rise when furling, that can be enough to make the furling line part (seen it happen). Tight wraps are also important, which can be done by alternating furling and easing the outhaul or by keeping a loose tension on the outhaul.

We had a relatively new Beneteau with a furling main that wasn't playing well at all; it got somewhat better after treating all the blocks and cars to soapy water, then hitting with McLube once dry (resolved symptom: easier to pull the furling line by hand at the mast, very difficult to pull at the cabintop winch). Additional improvement was addressed by raising the boom angle about 6°. (If you get this right, you can probably get away with leaving the vang on when furling.)

Here are two videos that may help:


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Old 31-05-2022, 10:06   #32
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Re: The ins and outs of mainsail furling

Thanks for all the thoughtfull posts. Some clarification. It's a rare, hard to find boat at a really good price for its age and condition, a Wauquiez 41 with a deck saloon. I can't just walk down the dock and choose the next Catalina or Beneteau. The boat hits so many of our check marks, we've proceeded despite my preference for a conventional stackpack main. As seen here, some are quite happy with theirs so we go boldly forward with a let's see attitude. As I told a friend after describing my nighmareish experience at a boatyard. "Then it's done and you go sailing." We're a year and a half from going off-shore. Plenty of time to sort it out and the admiral knows that spending the many pretty pennies to convert to a nice low friction stacking conventional main may be in the future if the boat proves to be everything we hope EXCEPT for for the i/m furling.


Thanks all,


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Old 31-05-2022, 10:25   #33
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Re: The ins and outs of mainsail furling

Kurt,

Only things I can add is that if you are racing in-mast or in-boom the systems are maddening, as it is almost impossible to get the perfect shape. BUT- for cruising they are great. Those who look down on these systems should recognize that Amel and Hallberg-Rassy both use in-mast.

The other comment is to practice in the bay. Play with the boom angle. Envision you are rolling up a window shade into a close fitting cylinder. If there is a fold, it will jam. Boom too high? Leech will be slack and create a wrinkle, boom too tight and you can't get good foot tension. Next while you are playing with the boom angle, and you get a jam, practice clearing it. There are in-mast/in-boom guys who have had a jam....... and those who lie about it.

Cheers!
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Old 31-05-2022, 10:49   #34
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Re: The ins and outs of mainsail furling

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Kurt,



The other comment is to practice in the bay. Play with the boom angle. Envision you are rolling up a window shade into a close fitting cylinder. If there is a fold, it will jam. Boom too high? Leech will be slack and create a wrinkle, boom too tight and you can't get good foot tension. Next while you are playing with the boom angle, and you get a jam, practice clearing it. There are in-mast/in-boom guys who have had a jam....... and those who lie about it.

Cheers!

Great tips! I thank you very much. It's these kinds of tips that I need before I bring the boat home on her bottom. The owner has promised to show me his process while on sea trial. He does say that there are a few tricks that are needed to avoid problems.



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Old 01-06-2022, 02:00   #35
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The ins and outs of mainsail furling

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Originally Posted by waterman46 View Post
I don't think that is strictly true. You can rig slab reefing to be done all in the cockpit, if that is important to you. Do use separate lines for clew and tack though - having it all in a single line is IMHO just asking for trouble.


I have a stack pack and single line reefing and quite frankly the sail can not be dropped without a trip to the mast.

Secondly with lazy jacks they are always in the way.

With an in mast you can reef and furl without leaving the cockpit and no messing around and the sail is nicely tided up with no messing with sail bags or ties.

These days it’s the only way to go for a cruising boat
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Old 01-06-2022, 09:46   #36
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Re: The ins and outs of mainsail furling

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I have a stack pack and single line reefing and quite frankly the sail can not be dropped without a trip to the mast.

Secondly with lazy jacks they are always in the way.

With an in mast you can reef and furl without leaving the cockpit and no messing around and the sail is nicely tided up with no messing with sail bags or ties.

These days it’s the only way to go for a cruising boat
I think I would miss those exhilarating trips to the mast! Off my arse and out in the weather. But I only sail in warm places these days.
In our boat I can only see the mainsail from the helm, w/o leaving the cockpit. Full cockpit cover. I don't see how I could make those rather exacting adjustments of vang, sheet and topping lift that seem to be required for successful mast furling without leaving the cockpit.
Yes, lazy jacks are always in the way. We have Dutchman. Main drops perfectly every time, full battens for shape and no luffing. Best of all worlds until you have to put on the PITA sailbag. But that's at the dock/anchorage, not at sea.
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Old 01-06-2022, 10:01   #37
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Re: The ins and outs of mainsail furling

Last summer I brought a boat back from Hawaii with a roller furling main. Never again. I made it back without cutting the sail away, but it was a near thing and I have used up my karma points. If you want me to bring another one back, I'll be busy.
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Old 01-06-2022, 10:27   #38
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Re: The ins and outs of mainsail furling

My experience is you can reef a bit without generally heading towards the wind, but you may find you cant furl or reef later if you got some folds etc when you did that first reef.
You may even find you are jammed if you try to re reef in or out.
So the key is perfection with the boat pitching up and down and the sail flopping around when reefing ... keeping the sail coiling flat.

But heck we're 'boomer cruisers' so we are motoring 80% of the time anyway, to keep the watermaker, fridge , washer and drier, and AC going, the sails are to look cool!

Just get a shoulder mount laser weapon to cut the boom and main off when it gets jammed....
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Old 01-06-2022, 10:34   #39
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Re: The ins and outs of mainsail furling

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I think I would miss those exhilarating trips to the mast! Off my arse and out in the weather. But I only sail in warm places these days.



Even at 64, I too am not looking for a complete absence of up and down moving around the boat. I know the exercise is good for me. If I can't manage going up to the mast or a set of companionway steps, it's time to get a trawler and do the great loop.


Cheer!


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Old 01-06-2022, 12:33   #40
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Re: The ins and outs of mainsail furling

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Originally Posted by KayZee View Post
Not very helpful despite your into sentence being undeniably true. I don't know if I like in mast furling because I've never lived with one except for a short time as crew with a 35 year old first gen Hood System



Guy on my dock loves his. RAN Sailing seem happy with theirs. I'm not commisioning a new boat and have a choice. Present owner says he'd never buy another boat without one. We've already decided on the boat with a "let's see" attitude. What I asked for was tips, tricks and info. Not a treatise on buying decisions.


Kurt
A decent sail on a well adjusted furling system will be easy to use and fast to implement, douse, and reef. It will have no roach so the sail area will not be as large so the boat will probably not be as fast as a conventional main. I have had both and currently have conventional with slab reefing only because I am racing the boat. Going out for a sail with friends it is nowhere near as easy as the in mast furling boat.
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Old 02-06-2022, 00:14   #41
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Re: The ins and outs of mainsail furling

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
My experience is you can reef a bit without generally heading towards the wind, but you may find you cant furl or reef later if you got some folds etc when you did that first reef.
You may even find you are jammed if you try to re reef in or out.
So the key is perfection with the boat pitching up and down and the sail flopping around when reefing ... keeping the sail coiling flat.

But heck we're 'boomer cruisers' so we are motoring 80% of the time anyway, to keep the watermaker, fridge , washer and drier, and AC going, the sails are to look cool!

Just get a shoulder mount laser weapon to cut the boom and main off when it gets jammed....

You're doing it wrong, Cheech!



In-mast furling works BETTER off the wind. You don't need or want to head up to operate the system. You need a bit of wind in the sail to keep the tension on. Furling out, the wind pulls the sail out. Furling in, the wind keeps the sail tensioned so it rolls up smoothly. Operate the outhaul to keep the right sail shape, not to provide direct resistance against the furling mechanism. Wind in the sail prevents the sail from "flopping around", and a well set up in-mast furling system is a real blessing in really gnarly, big sea conditions, whereas you may miss the power in light wind.



Note however that the system is not indifferent to which tack you are on. On one tack, the sail will make a sharp turn around the edge of the slot to go in -- this still works but is more difficult. The other tack it should work like butter if your system is properly set up (lubricated and correct foil tension, correct backstay tension).
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Old 02-06-2022, 01:50   #42
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Re: The ins and outs of mainsail furling

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In-mast furling works BETTER off the wind. You don't need or want to head up to operate the system. You need a bit of wind in the sail to keep the tension on. Furling out, the wind pulls the sail out. Furling in, the wind keeps the sail tensioned so it rolls up smoothly. Operate the outhaul to keep the right sail shape, not to provide direct resistance against the furling mechanism. Wind in the sail prevents the sail from "flopping around", and a well set up in-mast furling system is a real blessing in really gnarly, big sea conditions, whereas you may miss the power in light wind..
Indeed. Also for the OP, have a good look at which way the sail furls into the mast. Likely on one tack the sail will neatly roll around the spar inside the mast. On the other tack it will have friction as it slides around the slot lip in the mast. Ours is small enough we can normally pull the main in and out by hand and the difference without dragging the sail round the mast lip is noticeable.

Finally, huge difference between a baggy old main and a new inmast main. One of the problems is because it spends lots of time neatly furled inside the mast, it's well protected. Doesn't get dirty or sun drenched so initially appears to be in good clean condition. Once out on the water though the sail shape will reveal all, then its time to start again. Thankfully even with a good quality cloth, because its a simple sail to make, eg no foot bolt rope, no pockets and batons etc. Therefore the cost quite affordable particularly out of season.

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Old 02-06-2022, 01:51   #43
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Re: The ins and outs of mainsail in-mast furling

in-mast furling have plenty outs but not so much ins...
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Old 02-06-2022, 02:15   #44
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Re: The ins and outs of mainsail in-mast furling

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in-mast furling have plenty outs but not so much ins...
Wah?

Actually, for coastal sailing I really like it. Hugging the coast with frequent changes in course, wind shifts and squalls coming down the valleys means lots of adjustment needed. Being able to put a reef in just 30 seconds from the cockpit both simple and easy. Different perhaps if you are setting up for a long offshore passage on a single course, but for us it just works so well.

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Old 03-06-2022, 01:56   #45
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Re: The ins and outs of mainsail in-mast furling

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Wah?

Actually, for coastal sailing I really like it. Hugging the coast with frequent changes in course, wind shifts and squalls coming down the valleys means lots of adjustment needed. Being able to put a reef in just 30 seconds from the cockpit both simple and easy. Different perhaps if you are setting up for a long offshore passage on a single course, but for us it just works so well.

Pete
Jedi is famous for his aversion to in-mast furling.

That's ok -- to each his own.

As I've stated a few times before, I shared Nick's point of view until I was forced to buy a boat with in-mast furling, because there was literally not a single boat of this size in Europe for sale without it, struggled with the system for the first few months, then finally figured out how to use it and so came to respect it and even appreciate it. That's a pretty typical story -- 90% of those who hate it have never lived with it. So if they have ever even used it at all -- many of the haters have zero actual experience with in-mast furling, they just hate the idea of it -- they haven't used it enough to figure out how to use it. With very few exceptions.

In-mast furling would still not necessarily be my first choice if I were building a boat from scratch. For coastal sailing, racing, and/or mild latitudes, I would take a roachy full batten main and slab reefing. Nick's setup with a ketch rig is good for this because it keeps the size of the sails down -- I like it, and considered a similar rig when I was thinking about building custom. But for ocean sailing in tough latitudes and tough weather, in-mast furling is better in my book. Much safer, and much easier to regulate sail area, which is a big advantage in windy latitudes. YMMV, and of course, to each his own.
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