Taiwan Made Boats

[model 10]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Steel ballast was used in a lot of US boats also. Ballast is ballast. Lead is better obviously but expensive too. Steel encapsulated in concrete not a great idea as the concrete has water in it. But realistically, manufacturers of many items don't plan for them to last 3-4 decades. Steel punchings from fabricating shops were pretty much free back then.

What struck me with the Lafette keel I saw was the haphazard assortment of different steels. It wasn't a pile of "punchings" but pieces of rebar, chunks of I beam etc. etc. They were digging out the concrete on the project I saw.

[zeehag]

Originally Posted by Guy

What struck me with the Lafette keel I saw was the haphazard assortment of different steels. It wasn't a pile of "punchings" but pieces of rebar, chunks of I beam etc. etc. They were digging out the concrete on the project I saw.

what they had was what was used.
most of their steel came from usa until bethlehem closed down.
they did not do business with communist china.
being the bastion of capitalism they were. also supported and protected by usa.
contrary to opinion, the non specified mast wood of choice for the alleged spruce masts was thai cedar. how do you learn which is which?
if your original mast has no rot it is thai cedar.
you actually call in an expert for the job.
thai cedar is more dense than spruce and tolerates weather better. i love it.
i laugh hard at the fact my disrespected boat is created of better stuff than any given production boat and carries more character with comfort in seas.
formidable. practical. beautiful. durable.

[rbk]

The TaYang yard has not yet been mentioned. Lot of good boats are still coming out of the yard but I'm biased.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Guy

What struck me with the Lafette keel I saw was the haphazard assortment of different steels. It wasn't a pile of "punchings" but pieces of rebar, chunks of I beam etc. etc. They were digging out the concrete on the project I saw.

Interesting, albeit not too surprising! Friends had a Lafitte 44, we cruised some of the Caribe together. Always liked those boats viewed in the ads, although, in reality it seemed a bit weird in person.... long tall ladders, strange entries, high ceilings down below.

[double u]

...wow, scrap metal in concrete! how crappy can you get! concrete density is abt 2.4!
(& the little nagging thought in the back of my mind would be: if the cut THESE corners, what else did they do???)
(& I don't think "don't knock what worked for a long time!" is a valid argument! bloodletting & witch-burning "worked" for a long time too)

[Fore and Aft]

No one has mentioned the book "Heart of Glass" by Daniel Spurr. It is a very interesting book on the history of fiberglass boatbuilding. Asia gets its own chapter. The writing style makes it very easy to read.

Cheers

[Kenomac]

I alway liked the Baba 30 and 40, they looked to be put together rather sturdy when I almost purchased one back in 1985. Don't know how well they sail though, when we went on a test sail, the broker didn't want to deploy the sails on what was a very calm day. Left us wondering.

The woodwork was impressive, but now we just want as little as possible. Priorities change.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by double u

...wow, scrap metal in concrete! how crappy can you get! concrete density is abt 2.4!

This also describes Pacific Seacraft Ballast.

[rourkeh]

As the original poster had an interest in the pros and cons of Far East boat building I'll stick to that topic.
As with all things there is good and bad, and the yards in the orient turned out both. Back in the 1980's the layup used in most of the eastern yards was very heavy hand laid fiberglass mat where the idea that more was better. No voids, no shortcuts, no cheap products used in the process. This led to excellent very solid, very heavy hulls. The idea that chopper guns were used is not correct, that was an American production idea and was not adopted in the far east. The systems on most of the 1980's boat were very simple, such as copper plumbing and second rate wiring. The joinery work was where these boats really shine, the bulkheads and cabinetry was excellent, and with the cheap labour they used time was not an issue so they got it right. Old growth teak and heavy teak ply used everywhere. My decks, the house coring, and bulkheads on my Cheoy Lee are 3/4" first quality teak ply which is very heavy but will never expire. The use of fiberglass tabbing everywhere to join the hull to deck and all the bulkheads was overkill but created a very solid boat, this at a time when most U.S. manufacturers were gluing and screwing boats together in the fastest cheapest way possible. I would not be afraid of looking at boats from the Far East yards but as there were so many variances between boats a really good inspection is required. Little Harbor, and Cheoy Lee were exceptions as each boat had strict controls and oversight at the respective yards. Of the 40 plus 44' Cheoy Lee saiboats like mine that were built in the early 1980's all but one are still out there sailing. The one boat that was lost was in a typhoon in the East and the owners abandoned the boat in the storm and were rescued. The boat floundered for weeks and washed up on a beach more than 1,000 miles away. I don't think you could do that with a 1980's Bayliner.

[zeehag]

Originally Posted by double u

...wow, scrap metal in concrete! how crappy can you get! concrete density is abt 2.4!
(& the little nagging thought in the back of my mind would be: if the cut THESE corners, what else did they do???)
(& I don't think "don't knock what worked for a long time!" is a valid argument! bloodletting & witch-burning "worked" for a long time too)

as has been stated, many marques use this method.
you dont want encapsulated concrete keel plus extra contents, buy bolt on.
you will find many full deep keel solid boats built for cruising are constructed in the fill it with concrete and either steel shot or what is in yard.
sorry to disillusion you but facts is facts.
head out to watch some deep full keeled boats being built. is educational.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by double u

...wow, scrap metal in concrete! how crappy can you get! concrete density is abt 2.4!
(& the little nagging thought in the back of my mind would be: if the cut THESE corners, what else did they do???)
(& I don't think "don't knock what worked for a long time!" is a valid argument! bloodletting & witch-burning "worked" for a long time too)

Yeah, but it was an improvement over stones used by the British War Fleet!
I can understand the tradeoff. You have a big hollow damp unused space. You can fill 1/3 of it at many times the cost with lead, or fill it up at far less cost.

[rbk]

Just a reminder that the concrete and steel is a generalization of far east boats and not all yards used this method, mine is iron as are many others, some used lead. Personally I see nothing wrong with using concrete as the water in concrete is hydrolyzed during the curing process and any corrosion of the steel would happen within the first week of pouring and would have been fresh water so minimal corrosion. Biggest benefit of iron or lead over concrete would be the size to weight ratio which would give you more ballast or more room in your bilge depending on the design. I also believe that during the 70’s and 80’s with the cheap labour in the far east the boats to watch out for would be the competing American and European boats cutting corners to compete in an already tight market. Generalizing here, so again not all American or Euro boats but some for sure and they all felt the competition from the east.

[Pauls]

Concrete actually acts as a corrosion protector for steel. Look at almost every bridge, overpass, etc. Steel rebar reinforced concrete. I'd definitely seal the concrete exposed surfaces after it had cured to protect against water intrusion, but if this is done the steel will be fine. If it was not ferro-cement boats would fail rapidly with thin concrete and lots of thin, quick to rust thru wire mesh. Good ones last quite a while.

Scrap steel with its gaps filled with concrete has been used as ballast for a long time. Not as dense as lead but a hell of a lot cheaper and vastly easier to install than melting and casting lead.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by rbk

I see nothing wrong with using concrete as the water in concrete is hydrolyzed during the curing process and any corrosion of the steel would happen within the first week of pouring and would have been fresh water so minimal corrosion.

I disagree. There are many many types of cements. Do you believe the people who threw in scrap metal (including old car parts that I have seen) in a keel were really sophisticated enough to determine (or care about) the right type of cement.

As to corrosion .... all leak eventually and when they do, salt water corrodes (or rusts) the scrap metal (whatever metal was lying around the yard) and it expands, turns the cement into wet powder and starts to distort or in some cases delaminate the FRP keel.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by rbk

Just a reminder that the concrete and steel is a generalization of far east boats and not all yards used this method, mine is iron as are many others, some used lead. Personally I see nothing wrong with using concrete as the water in concrete is hydrolyzed during the curing process and any corrosion of the steel would happen within the first week of pouring and would have been fresh water so minimal corrosion. Biggest benefit of iron or lead over concrete would be the size to weight ratio which would give you more ballast or more room in your bilge depending on the design. I also believe that during the 70’s and 80’s with the cheap labour in the far east the boats to watch out for would be the competing American and European boats cutting corners to compete in an already tight market. Generalizing here, so again not all American or Euro boats but some for sure and they all felt the competition from the east.

I've had 3 Taiwan boats. Non had concrete. One US boat I had did.
But remember, all the highway construction you see including overpasses etc are... wait for it.. concrete and steel! The old Santa Cruz pier in California is an old concrete steel boat that the ocean has been beating to death for 75 years or so....