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Old 23-05-2020, 12:04   #1
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Switch to wing sail on a small cutter?

My darlin’ is a 24’ Aquarius Pilot Cutter with a 4’ bowsprit and 2’ boomkin. She weighs 8,900 lbs without any stores, tools, spares, etc. A lovely, shapely full figure gal. The boom is mounted fairly close to the coach roof and she has a boom crutch rather than a topping lift. Looks salty me thinks... Questions: Is it possible to change the standard mainsail to a wing type shape, but still a single normal sail and raise the boom up a foot or so on the mast? Could that compensate for the loss of sail area on the bottom? Will it make up for loss of power? I realize that I will not be able to raise the sail all the way to the top of the mast or the back stay will interfere. No, I cannot afford a carbon mast and especially not a real wing sail. I guess I’m talking about a hybrid mini gaff rig??? What else might I need to be considering? Thanks to all you learned sailors out there for any and all suggestions, recommendations.
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Old 23-05-2020, 12:53   #2
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Re: Switch to wing sail on a small cutter?

A diagram would help clarify your question. It’s difficult to visualize just what you are imagining.
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Old 23-05-2020, 13:15   #3
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Re: Switch to wing sail on a small cutter?

I think the OP is actually talking about an extra large roach sail, not what most sailors think of when they hear "wing sail."

Why he would want to do that to a beautiful classic like that is another matter...
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Old 23-05-2020, 16:29   #4
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Re: Switch to wing sail on a small cutter?

Well, it is 24 ft. Perhaps he wants to raise the boom so it can't strike his head when he tacks or gybes.... Perhaps he doesn't want to handle the gaff all the time....

If the OP will tell us more about what he wants/hopes to accomplish, it might help, and also a drawing of what he means by "a wing sail".

It may turn out that for his boat, his present sail set up will give him its best performance.

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Old 23-05-2020, 17:54   #5
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Re: Switch to wing sail on a small cutter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVHarmonie View Post
I think the OP is actually talking about an extra large roach sail, not what most sailors think of when they hear "wing sail."

Why he would want to do that to a beautiful classic like that is another matter...
Based on "hybrid mini gaff rig", I'd assume he's talking about a square top, rather than just a large roach, and certainly not a sail that wraps aroound the mast
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Old 24-05-2020, 20:20   #6
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Re: Switch to wing sail on a small cutter?

This site shows two different sailplans possible for the Aquarius 24 Pilot Cutter: https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/aq...4-pilot-cutter
Raising the boom on such a small boat will probably mess up the center of effort of the sail, badly impacting sailing performance. It could also reduce sail area so much that you might want to turn it into a powerboat instead. A wing sail usually refers to the rigid kind used on America’s Cup foilers. As others indicate with their suggestions of square-tops and super-roach sails, we are having trouble figuring out what you are proposing. Marconi sails are generally triangular, with “pointy” tops.
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Old 24-05-2020, 20:40   #7
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Re: Switch to wing sail on a small cutter?

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Originally Posted by psk125 View Post
A wing sail usually refers to the rigid kind used on America’s Cup foilers.

Or the soft sail which wraps around the mast on a Wharram


https://www.wharram.com/articles/how...m-wingsail-rig
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Old 24-05-2020, 20:48   #8
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Re: Switch to wing sail on a small cutter?

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/aq...4-pilot-cutter

Notes

LOA w/bowsprit: 30'.
Also available as gaff tops'l cutter. (LOA w/bowsprit: 32'.)
Optional Volvo MD 7, 13hp diesel
Derived from a Lyle Hess design.
The builder was located at Sarasota, FL (USA)
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Old 25-05-2020, 00:18   #9
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Re: Switch to wing sail on a small cutter?

Thank you all for the interesting comments and questions. Tough crowd. To clarify, I was hoping to gain enough clearance under the boom to mount a hard nesting dinghy. Yes, she is a beautiful classic that I am presently restoring. She was left on a floating dock in Key West to ride out hurricane Irma. She is very beat up. She did have the option of a gaff rig from the factory but I believe only 3 were made Of 33 total and I’ve had no luck locating any of them. The sail I’m referring to is shaped like a single panel of a wing sail in the interests of replacing the sail area lost by taking a foot off the bottom. I understand the possibility of a change in the center of effort but I’m no marine architect so thought I’d ask all you experts. I also have not figured out how shrink a photo small enough to post it on this web site for you. Going to find a much younger person to help with that soon... thanks again.
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Old 25-05-2020, 00:40   #10
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Re: Switch to wing sail on a small cutter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancesail View Post
The sail I’m referring to is shaped like a single panel of a wing sail in the interests of replacing the sail area lost by taking a foot off the bottom.
It helps if you use common terminology:A "single panel of a wing sail" can be all sorts of shapes including your current "pinhead" shape.

Green below is called square top
Red is called large roach.


Are you talking about something like the red or green shape?
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Old 25-05-2020, 00:51   #11
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Re: Switch to wing sail on a small cutter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancesail View Post
Thank you all for the interesting comments and questions. Tough crowd. To clarify, I was hoping to gain enough clearance under the boom to mount a hard nesting dinghy. Yes, she is a beautiful classic that I am presently restoring. She was left on a floating dock in Key West to ride out hurricane Irma. She is very beat up. She did have the option of a gaff rig from the factory but I believe only 3 were made Of 33 total and I’ve had no luck locating any of them. The sail I’m referring to is shaped like a single panel of a wing sail in the interests of replacing the sail area lost by taking a foot off the bottom. I understand the possibility of a change in the center of effort but I’m no marine architect so thought I’d ask all you experts. I also have not figured out how shrink a photo small enough to post it on this web site for you. Going to find a much younger person to help with that soon... thanks again.
It would require some refitting, but if you had a junk rig you could reef the bottom panel upwards and increase deck space and view range. With the bonus that you could still use the bottom panel when needed. If you could get rid of the spreaders safely then you could potentially have a junk main with a normal job. You can fly a ghosting jib in light winds from a junk mast though, but to achieve it properly would require remasting with a free standing mast that sits significantly forward of where the current one is, and in that case you wouldn't need a jib at all if done properly, though if you did want to fly one in light winds you would need a bowsprit or it would not be balanced.

Maybe you could achieve some kind of similar effect with a gaff sail, and reef the bottom panel upwards, though I have never heard if such a thing. But I imagine it could be done with running topping lifts and boom. I might be willing to do the design for you, but not for free, and I would need a lot more info.
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Old 25-05-2020, 07:15   #12
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Re: Switch to wing sail on a small cutter?

I like the wharram wing sail that I use. A junk rig sounds interesting.
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Old 25-05-2020, 07:58   #13
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Re: Switch to wing sail on a small cutter?

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I like the wharram wing sail that I use. A junk rig sounds interesting.
Yea, I think it would look great on his ship, and it is a proven rig that would achieve the effect that he is after. Selling the existing rigging would fund most of the conversion costs. Although I would be up for the challenge of designing a foot-reefing gaff main, which would have the bonus of not needing complete re-rigging.
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Old 25-05-2020, 09:53   #14
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Re: Switch to wing sail on a small cutter?

Would it be easier, quicker and cheaper to make changes to the jib and stow the dinghy on the foredeck instead? There isn’t a lot of room on the cabin top anyway.
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Old 25-05-2020, 10:46   #15
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Re: Switch to wing sail on a small cutter?

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Would it be easier, quicker and cheaper to make changes to the jib and stow the dinghy on the foredeck instead? There isn’t a lot of room on the cabin top anyway.
Yea, he could achieve that with a yankee cut jib perhaps. I also have some plans for a folding tender that can be easily home made, I could take pics and upload if he likes.
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